BPDRecovery.com: Forums

I've "missed" about 20 posts in this thread since I last logged in so I know it may seem like I'm coming in at the tail end when things have already been covered.

True - leaders are like magnets and that's a fact that can't be helped. Also true that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. So if, of the group drawn toward the leadership, there's a squeaky wheel that's creating a very distracting sound that's grating and disruptive, isn't it natural to tend to that, to solve that problem?

On paper, I understand the concept of "apply time, effort and energy equally" but the reality is that it can't work that way. If someone's in the corner screaming their fool head off and another is off to the side trying to light the table on fire, is it really in the best interest of the community to go on with business as usual, keep talking to Suzie about her math work and Bobby about his woodworking project? Without getting the Screamer to calm down (or leave) and without dousing the mini-fire which could cause the whole building to burn down & injure everyone in the process, is it really the top priority to focus on math and woodworking at that time?

I'm really not trying to invalidate or cast aspersions or get defensive. I'm trying to understand how to "apply time, effort and energy equally" in the midst of barely-contained chaos sometimes.

I fully appreciate Suzie and Bobby's desire for attention, for the conversation to continue, to feel "counted" and valued. Believe me, I would much rather that the Screamers didn't show up and that pyromaniacs didn't make it through the door so things could be calm and focused straight-through, all the time. I love nothing more than peace and quiet! I love making progress, learning, sharing and growing.

When someone's screaming and another's setting fires and someone else is blasting spit-wads all over the place, it's not really a good environment for that progress, learning, sharing and growing.

I recognize that there is a belief that the S/CL team has not only allowed these hooligan behaviours but also encouraged such things with winks, nods and inappropriate time-outs.

I shared an anecdote with someone recently. I was a sophomore in high school, in US History, with a teacher fresh out of college, an alumnus of the same high school. She was very unsure and meek in her teachings. I was unable to focus because of the distractions I felt in the class. The first grading period, I got a D in the class. That shocked me into blocking out all the distractions I felt the teacher brought to the table and focused on my own studies. I had the book, I knew the way the tests & assignments worked (essay questions, etc.) and I was able to work around the distractions. For the next three grading periods, I got straight A's.

My point is that I'm hopeful that - as difficult as it can seem - folks can work on their own stuff by tuning out the distractions when they arise. That folks can "learn in spite of the distractions the teacher is adding."

We're not perfect - we're fresh out of college, unsteady sometimes, imperfect, flawed, human. We make mistakes and fuck up.

If you say nothing when we fuck up, do we necessarily know that we've fucked up?

If you say nothing when we fuck up, do we necessarily know how pissed off you are about that?

If you say something when we fuck up and we (gasp!) have a human reaction (get pissed, defensive, deny, etc.) is it time to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Recovery doesn't mean "never fucking up."

Leader doesn't mean "always perfect."

I've got some other things I'd like to put on the table but I think they may be best in a separate thread as they're more personal, more about me, my role, my beliefs whereas this thread is more community-leadership focused.

I wasn't going to jump in here, but I do have something I'd like to say. I don't know if it's a "response" or a "suggestion" or what, it's just my feeling about something that was said.

Ash wrote of some people who come here and are "Screamers". In my mind, these are people who come on, cause dissent and make a mess. My question is - if people know they are doing this and dont' like it, why do they keep on responding and responding to their posts? It's sort of like adding fuel to the fire. I would imagine that if no one responded, they would give up and walk away. But I see that instead, people respond and just make things more difficult. I've always wondered about that.

Hi, jim.

I don't think that's all I got from it, I think that's what meant the most to me and helped me the most, which is why I pointed it out. If I did miss the point, can you explain what point you are referring to?

Thanks.

That what the S/CL team is trying to do, and what it appears that we're doing, may not be the same thing. My 5th grade teacher was primarily trying to teach and maintain order, but to me at that time I thought he just took sadistic pleasure in riding the bullies' tails. Similarly, how the S/CL team is seen here may not be the whole picture.

jim

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Perfect example of what this thread was expressing: us vs them

Bg - Yep ! It's called live and let live (or die).

Given that the S/CL team is here in an authority capacity and one of giving direction to this board- if what is 'seen' isn't the whole picture perhaps then we have some serious issues... if the masses that are to respond to it cannot comprehend it.. do you really feel there can be any following? or respect?

Not quite sure that you said what you meant to Jim.

Smilin, I don't understand your comment. Could you add more to it please? I'd like to understand what you're saying.

I wonder that, too. Over and over and over...

I think some people can't just let go and walk away because they "need" to be understood and they "need" to be heard - and in some way, they "need" to have the last word. I've felt like that before. I don't like feeling "less than" or unimportant or misunderstood. I know I'm not so bad, so I want to stand up and defend myself when I feel slighted or disregarded. If it was an honest misunderstanding, we make peace and both walk away fine.

The problem comes for me when I'm dealing with someone who is incapable (for any number of reasons) of "hearing me". Often, it's because they are in some emotional state themselves. The same way that my feelings and my wants can prevent me from keeping an open mind, other people may not give me an open-minded hearing when their feelings and wants are riding high. And if they won't listen to me, I'm probably not going to listen to them...now we're screaming at each other, and I won't let it go because I'M NOT WRONG!!!

I've been learning for several years now about "walking away". It really does work. When I withdraw and stop interacting, the screaming quiets down. I had to unlearn a few things though, and it can still catch me wrong. Stepping away and not engaging does NOT mean that I'm giving up. Accepting that someone has behavior that troubles me does NOT mean that it's OK for them to act that way. Letting the Whirling Dervishes whirl does NOT need to disrupt MY stability.

And most importantly...it is NOT up to me to save everyone.

I think it's my turn, Ash, to 'try' to :



- Please check your calendar- 3 months have not passed.

Likewise, because of this:



and the fact that it brought this up for you:



Which indicates you are unable to separte stuff- as I can't make or get you do to anything...

I am chosing to separate stuff by no longer engaging with you. So that you can no longer select me to be your kicking post.

Apparently you are as bad as the rest of us who do not 'get' boundaries. So, I will be enforcing this one for you.

I have no interest in holding ANY type of conversation with you. You don't converse you hammer home your own point then shout and scream to the board that I'm not changing (readily enough) for your needs. I am not here for YOU Ash. I dont know that anyone is beside to S/CL team is.

You quoted me to myself. I apologize for trying to understand what any of that was about. You're right - it's not May 23rd yet. Why must you come in here, quote me and then get "all up in my face" for trying to understand what you're saying? I did not seek you out to engage in conversation with you. I asked for clarification of your puzzling actions in this thread that was completely separate from you.

You quoted me.

You said something about my words.

You came into this thread and talked at/around me.

I'm willing to avoid you - as I have done so far - but don't you need to take some accountability for your own provacative actions?

You seem to be deliberately "poking the bear" to see if you can get a rise out of me. I don't appreciate that and I'm asking you to stop. I find that to be childish and unacceptable behaviour.

I have an idea of what this means.... I think it could mean that the way you are expressing yourself conveys an "us" thought process. For example, your quote, "If you say nothing when we fuck up, do we necessarily know that we've fucked up?". Notice the "we", as in, the SCL/CL team. You seem to identify the most with the leadership team, which is expected.

I don't see that as "us vs. them". I don't see a "vs." there, I see an "and". Maybe if a lot more people saw an "and", they may feel included, and they may be able to see more of a whole, instead of a bunch of parts competing or defending. It's all in the way one chooses to look at it.

Us AND Them. Everyone's included. We are all members of this community, which draws us together as a whole.

Point of clarity: "poking the sleeping bear" is a form of testing the limits which is, inherently, a childish thing to do. It is the action that I am viewing as childish. As the actions are coming from an adult rather than a child, I see such actions as unacceptable.

The testing of boundaries is a major part of the recovery process for Borderline. We have to keep testing them until we can trust that they are meaningful and do have consequences. If Johnny starts screaming and Mom says "Shut up or I'll smack you," Johnny will scream some more to see if Mom really will smack him. If Mom doesn't smack him, Johnny will scream some more until Mom says one more time "Shut it or I'm gonna smack you." Johny will keep screaming, Mom will keep threatening and both of them will know it's completely meaningless unless or until Mom actually makes a boundary with a consequence she's fully intending to enforce, regardless of distractions and attempts at provocation.

I see that Smilin needs to keep poking the sleeping bear and now that I've reminded myself that this is a normal part of the recovery process rather than a deliberate malicious attack designed to provoke me, I see that I went astray. I responded to the behaviour on a micro-level without stepping back far enough to see that this is a macro-level issue for her.

I will continue to maintain my silence toward Smilin, as promised, and tie a mental string around my finger to allow someone else to step in to address the behavior with her in the future.

My most sincere apologies to those in the thread for the minor detour / hijack. I'm not perfect. I'm learning and, in some cases, re-learning some things that slipped my mind over the past few crazy-med months.

Aqua, I see your point. Would it have been better if I had used specifics instead of generic terms?

Instead of would it have been better if I had said or if I had said

Or would it have been seen as "Ash is putting people on the spot"?

How do I tippy-toe around the taboo against naming-names but still conveying the message / situation which happens repeatedly?

I don't want to name-names because I know the discomfort it causes. But if I can't use generic terms, how can I speak about issues? If I use fake names (Suzie, Bobby, Johnny), is that better or worse?

When I first came to BPDR, I didn't think of an "us" vs. "them" sort of thing. I knew there were Moderators and I accepted that. I don't see anything wrong with having Moderators - we need them. I look at them as sort of guides - to help us along. But you know what? When this "us" vs. "them" thing started - I thought it was not about the Moderators. I thought it was about 2 groups here - but not the Moderators. Of course I wouldn't know who the groups might be (if, in, fact, they do exist) - I have no clue. So as far as "us" vs. "them" goes - I bet each of us has our own perception of what we think they might consist of.

Honestly, what is the alternative? Can you be expected to never speak from an SCL/CL pov? Is that needed? I believe that in some ways it does cause a division. It seems like the president addressing the country or something.

There's a leadership team, and there are the members. So there are two groups. There's an "us" and a "them." But the versus part, that's a choice. I do not choose it. Do you? jim

Mobilene, I think this is the second time in as many days that I've used this for one of your posts.

I really need to get it added to the emoticon library!

Just noticing that Susanna started the thread as "Us AND Them" rather than "Us VERSUS Them" - thanks for showcasing the power of the word, Mobilene.

(really helps to have the IMG tags in place)

Thanks Jim. I think that's what I was trying to say. There does not have to be a "versus." Personally, I don't see what difference it makes if a Moderator speaks from a "leadership point of view" or his/her own view - to me, they're the same. Just that the leadership person may have more experience with this. I dont' see it as a negative. And if they do say something, then do they have to quantify which point of view it is? I just dont' think that's necessary. I'll take help any way it's honestly and respectfully offered.

Aqua -

I agree it should be an 'and'. And Ive got no problem with 'authority' or 'mods'. I do expect them to lead- but I expect that to be consistent and it hasn't been- for quite a long time. So, that is a separate issue.

Jim -

Chosing not to see it when its on your nose is called puttng your head in the sand. Sorry, I just dont agree with that. It has been made clear by the postings on the board who and what the us vs them thing is about. No two ways about it. Take a random poll. Don't require any nicks or isps or anything else. Do it even in a week from now.

I realize that some will vote however they believe is favoralbe in the eyes of those they want to impress, however.

The question is- does bpdr want to be a community divided amongst us vs thems. And I dont mean the general means of who one posts to or not- that is the unspoken us vs them that we find in all walks of life. I mean the out and out us vs them that has been going on for months now and has been transformed.

Apparently there is no desire to address that. Apparentlly and 'and' will suffice to play out in the heads of those who want to keep a blind eye.

Aqua, imo, had the right idea- that is to present the community as an 'and' environment. That however is not what I feel management cares to do nor to address.

Us vs them.. I think those who say they dont see it are blind. I'm very sorry (which only indicates they are putting themselves in one of the categories.) And, I think for people to deny it when a few have been brave enough to step up is really sad.

I wont say more on this because it really takes each person to use their own common sense. And, perhaps their values are such that they prefer divisions and classes and subcultures. that's their right. I don't need to convince anyone- especially anyone who choses to ignore what sits directly in front of them.

Why does anyone have to vote on this? Do you really believe that some people here want to "impress" others? What would make you say that? Why do you believe that by not seeing it means you're in one of those groups? I see how some people are having issues with this, but just because I'm not, that does not put me in a "group." I wouldn't even know what group it is. No one has invited me into a group.

What would you like to see happen Smilin? What is your ideal of how this board should be run? What do you expect of the moderators?

Good post.

I think I brought up the "we" in Ash'es post to try and illustrate that the way she is communicating does facilitate actually what she does believe.... the truth is there before everyone to see - that there is definitely an "us" mentality going on. I have accepted this. I also have within myself an idea of who Ash is and what her issues might be. If I choose to buy into the complete BPDR methodology and choose to vie for ranking at BPDR, based on who Ash is and what she is looking for, then that is a viable option. I don't believe it's a viable option to try to break apart and improve Ash'es system, as I don't believe she is ready for that. She may never be at this rate.

I do find that what she is doing is mostly good, so therefore, I don't feel the need to start a crusade lol. I am willing to take the good with the bad, although I am not willing to vie for ranking by pleasing Ash or anyone else. I do like some of the SCL/CL team at BPDR. I think they are generally good peeps.... but I am here for myself. I am here to make things happen for me. I am not here to vie for attention from Ash, I am not here to change the system (although I do find it interesting that I am compelled to do so, to improve the system at BPDR - and I have to keep telling myself to stop trying to improve things). I guess this is a good sign, though.

So basically, I choose to try to bring it together by seeing Us AND Them. I don't ignore what people are saying, I just don't care how they see it. I care more about becoming, and to see things as Us AND them, to me, is a stepping-stone to better teamwork. I can accept the team as-is, and give my input, and learn, and grow, or I can decide to use their issues as a hindrance for my own growth. As in, I can't grow because I am too busy being angry at the team for being broken.... I can gain more here than I can gain by leaving. In other words, I'm not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater because Ash and the other CL/SCL's have issues. I just see their issues and either move on or decide to present them to the team or the individual.

In other words, learning to work within the system is imperative in this case, for me, because I think I can gain more from being here than I can from leaving. And it's not going to affect my real life whether Ash has an issue or not, or what Ash sees or thinks. I can learn from Ash, while ignoring the parts I don't want to hear or know.

I appreciate your can-do attitude, smilin', and I think we share it. But sometimes it just isn't necessary or efficient to be can-do in some ways. I think for me this is one of those times.

BG - as far as what you quoted from my passage. It's a statement that I believe. It's ok for me that you don't believe. I just don't buy the innocence and righteousness that many project. We all have holes; we are all faulty; and no one is better than another person- some just keep their weak spots more hidden than others.



It isn't about my ideal. I did not create this board. You are completely missing the point.

I said I am not asking anyone to chose to believe one way or another. I stated that it's been commented on and that some will chose not to see it. That is their right. I don't care to force anyone into anything. That isn't what I am about. I do speak up for what I feel is wrong however, and that will not change.

I already commented on what I expect of the moderators. It's pretty simple- direct and guide the board. Some manage to; others seem to prefer to stay in the fray then question why things are a mess; some chose to 'be' the fray and question why things are a mess. That is my viewpoint.

If I really thought that management was concerned and open to input, I might offer a few things. However, I don't see that. Not enough of a firm conviction that perhaps some things need to be addressed. Matter of fact when I brought such up awhile ago - the response was all sorts of assumptions over what "I" want. It's not about 'me'... it's about running a community that is effective in supporting others to change. And recently when another member brought up similiar it was more about how they could change how they felt and how the mod team isnt perfect. Not one person I've seen comment about the upheaval elluded to perfect- only consistency and fairness- treating others with respect.

Thanks Smilin. I believe I understand now. I think I agree with Aqua. This is the way things are. The moderators have issues as we all do. If we all were "perfect" then we wouldn't be here. So we have to work with what we have. I know I have been frustrated at times, and felt the moderators haven't "heard" me. I have been one of the ones who've felt that things weren't fair. I see what I think is some people getting away with some stuff and others not getting away with it. But I'm trying to move past all that and focus on taking care of myself. I care about most of the people here. I hate to see people arguing and upset with each other. I am not out to impress anyone. I just would like us all to get along so we can work on our stuff. I'm trying to see more gray. So, it is what it is.

I believe most of us have good intentions. I see you Smilin as having made a big impact on this board. You have brought a lot of insight into your posts, and helped others immeasurably. I know sometimes I have disagreed with you, but I also see the good you bring here.

I think it's when we get caught up in our "stuff" that the BPD behavior comes out and we have trouble disengaging from it. We want to be heard - we want to be right - we want to prove our points. I know I have been guilty of that. But I am learning from the members and from the moderators. I don't remember who told me this - it could have been someone here or it could have been my T - but they said "life isn't fair." Here comes Radical Acceptance.

I see a lot of misunderstanding here. Someone says something. The other person takes it either out of context, or the wrong way, or whatever. A small battle ensues. I used to think the moderators should step in and stop it. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I don't know what their criteria is. Why do they stop one person and not another? I don't know. I wish I did. I would love to see consistency here.

These are just some thoughts. I think some things could be changed. Maybe they will be, who knows?

Aqua -

Your post made a lot of sense to me. Thank you for taking the time to express it. The items I bolded were of specific interest to me. I like this attitude you have. It is definitely a good one and one in which you can get the most out of BPDR - or rather try to.

Decent thoughts here. Glad you posted.