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Who are the 'us-es' and who are the 'thems' around here?

Seems to me that this place has split into two separate factions of late. I've stayed well away from it, but seems to me you could almost draw a line in the sand and put a bunch of people one one side and another bunch on the other. And it scares me that I can only really relate to one 'side' of the line.

Am I the only one that feels this way? And is this the way it's going to be around here? Are the 'thems' going to continue to feel on the outer for...I don't know what. Not fitting some box that is some other persons idea of what is functional...?

really? im a me.

i still cant see the separate stuff...i must be blind.

you know me, S. im no herd animal. i am on the corner by myself

Susanna I have tried so hard to stay out of this all too. Guess my distress tolerance practice has finally come to an end. I have been saddened, somewhat disappointed, have been angry, all sorts of things and not many of them great of late and is why I have distanced myself some.

I do see an 'us' and 'them' forming and I don't want to be part of it. I don't know how it is defined I can't place it. I don't know what purpose it serves either. I do know I am going to stay the hell away from it though. Except to say what I have here. Cos I hear you I really do!

thanks, Jody.

I feel like I need to clarify somewhat where I am coming from...

I think it's a growing sense of unease that all of the people I relate to her - whose views and attitudes I share - are on some sort of 'outer' right now.

I don't do PMs so there's no actual alliance or coalition building or anything. In practical terms, I am an island. I guess I am just disconcerted that there seem to be a bunch of judgements emerging, and I find myself falling on the outside of them, in terms of where I sit personally.

Plus it feels like there are undercurrents of new, unspoken 'rules' that are not quite stated, but somehow bubbling under the surface and that leech out from time to time.

Am not sure what it all means or what's to be done, really. I do feel there is less tolerance than there ever seemed to be before, and a lot more labeling going on around here. And I do agree with those who feel intimidated by the very strident views of some...

I began noticing a problem for me personally when Ash posted that she could relate to me shortly after I had been finding a conversation with her helpful. It seems that when others went into attack mode against Ash, when she had a bit of a meltdown, I got caught up in the attack somehow because people seemed to have an issue with the fact that she was investing her time in me here. I figured the envy or whatever was causing it would die down so I didn't give it much of my attention at first. I have not been very impressed with the way some people use BPDR for quite some time and that has resulted in my wanting to keep more distance from certain people. In that way I can see where some separation has happened for myself but I don't see it as a bad thing because distancing myself is a good response to a bad situation.

The way the situation affects me is that I feel left out. It's one of my issues to be part of things, but I'm generally "too nice" to be an "us" or "them". I know that's a positive quality, LOL, but when all this drama is going on, as much as I dislike it, I feel left out. It seems like the threads about the problems on the board are getting all the attention, and if you're not part of all that, you're not important.

I don't know exactly who is "us" and who is "them" but I know I'm just me, wanting to be heard about my own issues. I have a crazy idea that I'd be "in" more if people wanted to do CCs with me. I want to be part of what's going on!

So, for me these "goings on" lately just trigger my BPD issues and make me want to stay away or push myself IN somehow. Fortunately, I have enough going on in my RL so that I can put aside these unhealthy thoughts, and put the "board" into proper perspective. It's NOT my life, and it's not that important. Still, the situation upsets me.

Agree with Susanna and trying to comprehend how that ties into the premise of the board-



Happy, Healthy Living ?

Under these conditions ?

The tension- created months ago - has only intensified- thanks to a few people.

Really dont understand the purpose of the 'us' vs 'them'. Nor do I care. Just know this board has damaged itself- seriously. I am saddened, disappointed - and somewhat angry.

Can you be more specific? What judgments? New, unspoken "rules"? Like what? What has leeched out that you've noticed?

Not to downplay or invalidate anyone's parking ticket on this question.. I know the social dynamics of these places can be astoundingly powerful, which is bizarre when you realize we're all pixels on a screen. And I feel saddened and somewhat disappointed too.. but...

When I get in a crack... or stay in one as it seems to happen more often.. I find it helpful to get focus by thinking of BPDR as a garage. A behavior and thought garage.

When I work on my car or my pickup or my scooter in my garage.. I really need only a few things to do a fine job...

- I need a good simple easy to understand manual if I haven't done the job before.
- I need enough light to see what I"m doing.
- I need enough time to do the job right.
- I need enough space to move around freely.
- I need the right tools to do the job
- I need to be able to find the tools easily,
- I may at times need somebody to help me hold stuff and hand me stuff and tools and tell me what they think.

And it makes absolutely no difference, except to my attitude, what music is playing in the background. If I have the stuff I need, and pay attention to what I"m doing, the job will get done properly no matter what the music is or what band is playing.

So, instead of thinking about the "us" and "them" what can we all do to get back to working on our own issues?
How can we all change our focus from "the problem" to "the solution"?
Where I'm trying to go with that...

If I'm sitting here thinking about how whacked the board has seemed lately and I'm thinking about which people I don't agree with and I'm thinking about everything that could have been handled better - I'm still looking at the problem. My energy follows my focus, and when I stay focused on "everything that is wrong" my energy stays in "what's wrong". The more I pick at the scab, the less likely it is to heal.

To move myself (and my sphere of influence) OUT of "what's wrong" I need to move my focus AWAY from analyzing "wrong". I need to move my energy in a positive direction and take my focus OFF the perceived troubles for a time. I have PLENTY of recovery work to do, and if I'm stuck on something, I need to pick up something else instead.

I'm NOT saying that nothing happened.
I'm NOT saying that we just forget about it.
I'm NOT saying we should pretend the issues don't exist.
I'm NOT saying that improvements can't be made.
I'm NOT saying that you aren't allowed to feel the way you feel.

What I'm saying...we can all get back to a more rational, less emotional state if we can pick up some other thread of our recovery and focus on that for a while.

Give this recent crap a time-out and look at something else.

How was work today? Was there anything that went particularly well, or something that you think you might have handled differently?

Or at home - What did you do today that brought you a feeling of satisfaction? What about distress? How was today different from last week, or last year? What have you learned? What still needs improvement?

Mindfulness exercises are always good - even silly ones. What font do you usually type with? How do you feel if you switch fonts? Does it make it easier to write, or more difficult? How about changing the background color on your monitor? Does it make a difference?

Gratitude lists and other such things have come up in another thread. Always a good exercise...

Feeling "safe" comes from inside as much as it does outside. Our fears and insecurities color any situation. They magnify the bad and they obscure the good. That which you fear the most will meet you halfway, and the more effort you pour into an idea (for good or bad) the more power you give it and the sooner it comes to existence.

Instead of sitting with the fear and the anger and sadness, what can each one of us do - for ourselves - to work at our recovery in a more positive manner?

You know what I realized yesterday, when I talked to a new friend.... he's so laid-back, and I'm so uptight comparatively. He's such a nice addition to my life. He does everything in such a matter-of-fact way.

I told him of my fears - of my fears to participate in a mutual activity we both enjoy. He giggled in his silly, kiddish kind of way, and said, "Quit being such a baby!" and we both laughed. I like his approach to life, simple, yet it seems to work.

Laughter is the best medicine.

Minx, you make a great point. It's not about pretending that stuff hasn't gone on, but moving past it. And I realize that probably didn't come through in my post to you, Susanna. Yes, there's stuff going on. I think that some of it is this nebulous "something" that can't be pointed to. Hence, my question about specifics. If there is something specific, as part of the S/CL team, I'd like to know. If there's just a "feeling", maybe we ALL need to do some untwisting.

I've been choosing to stay out of it, and to only reply to posts which have nothing to do with it, as well as continuing to work on my own issues here. Of course, I'm breaking my own rule by posting this, but this will be my one and only post on the subject, and I'm doing it because I think it might help.

Staying out of it doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on what's been going on. I do - but I don't think those involved are ready to listen. I'm choosing to be effective (in DBT terms). My goals are to make good use of the tools and support here in my own recovery, and to help others out where I can, so I only do things which will further those goals.

I've seen this kind of thing happen at BPDR before and I've left because of it. But I always came back a couple of months later to find it had blown over. Things will get back to normal eventually - when people stop fuelling the crisis.

Of course, it's easy for me to say this when I'm not directly involved. I know if I felt like an "us" or a "them" I'd want to stand up for myself. But I'd encourage everyone on the board to think hard about what you're trying to achieve. Then be effective by doing just what is needed to reach those goals. If there's nothing you can realistically do to bring about what you want, you need to radically accept that and figure out what's best for you in the current circumstances. Take care of yourselves. Do whatever is best for you.

This is a group of people who suffer with BPD.

No matter how recovered we may be, people with BPD, put under enough pressure long enough, will react just like people with BPD.

Given enough BPD like reactions, contention will become so frequent and powerful that it will seem to be pervasive and permanent.

If we build structures and processes and behaviors that allow and enable and encourage us to cut each other enough slack under pressure, we can prevent the very normal BPD behavior from pushing the organization to this point of contention.

Acceptance of people does not require and should not requre acceptance of behavior. Our own or others. But acceptance of ourselves and others is absolutely essential for an organization like this to survive and become healthy.

IMHO.

There are us/them issues on every board across the entirety of the internet. Everything from religion to politics to the weather can spark a polarized debate on which everyone gets involved, feels a need to chime in, defend their position, belief or friends. The more fuel is thrown on it, the hotter it rages. That's the nature of things, regardless (IMO) of any personality disorder issues.

The fact is that BPDR runs damn well compared to other mental health boards and runs better than a lot of non-mental-health boards I've known.

As borderline is generally "normal human stuff" to greater frequency and deeper intensity, what we've seen here is not so terribly far outside the scope of any other board, I don't think.

No one likes to be called names. No one likes to have reality defined for them. No one likes to feel excluded. No one likes to be gossiped about. That's all perfectly normal human nature.

As several have said (up there^) there's no need to pretend it didn't exist or disrupt things for a while but there's also no real need to let it control the experience here or diminish the value of what's offered here, tool- and support-wise.

If you (in the general sense) feel like something you posted (unrelated to The Recent Events) was overlooked, I think this is a perfect time to bump it back up or open a new thread related to it. I think many of us would like to get back to the usual operations and focus on things other than The Recent Events.

Why do I so often feel like Punxatawny Phil?

Has it stopped snowing yet?

Thanks for the responses.

It's not just the drama and conflict I am finding disconcerting (I can stay away from that easily enough). It's that I find myself starting a list of things in my head that it's best not to talk about.

Trinity asked what judgements, what unspoken rules. It's hard to pinpoint, but it seems there is less tolerance for those of us who are more sensitive, have greater attachment difficulties, value (and don't just want to shut down) our emotional reactions, are struggling to cope with whatever is going on. It feels like there is less 'grey' around here, and more of a sort of a 'just apply a tool and get over it' approach, and if the tool/getting over it doesn't work, we're basically ignored by all but the few quieter voices who relate.

So it does feel like there's an 'in' gang who have a jolly-hockey-sticks kind of approach to it all, and the rest of us who just don't operate like that. And that the JHS crowd label the 'others' as dysfunctional/not willing to look at themselves/acting out/whatever.

Yep, emotionality can go too far in BPD, and we all have to take care not to wallow/live in the past/get lost in our feelings. But things can go too far the other way, too. There is a lot of space in the middle, however. And it's that middle space I want to feel comfortable in. Not one extreme or the other. And sometimes I feel like only one very extreme end of the spectrum is truly tolerated here.

It's not that I feel overlooked or unsupported. I don't. There are enough people I relate to here who I can connect to at the same level. But it does seem to me that increasingly, we are using the board in a way that is evoking displeasure/concern in those whose approach is different.

I hear what some of you guys are saying about moving on, but it's hard with these sorts of undercurrents to be really open and honest without looking over your shoulder and wondering if the thread somebody just opened is a subtle reference to one of yours. It would be OK if there was tolerance for a whole bunch of different views, but honestly, it doesn't feel that way.

I am not the sort of person who wants to just keep bumbling along and hoping I don't step on a landmine. I'd really like to understand fully what I am dealing with, and not have to keep guessing at what is - and what isn't - going to be accepted.

And I don't mean in an ROE kind of a way. I can't put a finger on it, but there are absolutely two sets of ROEs operating here right now, and I feel like we only officially know about one of them.

Bingo, which is why it's fruitless to become involved. Time is spent better elsewhere.

I get where you're coming from about unspoken rules and how that makes you want to act cautiously. But I hope that in time you will regain your comfort level here.

I'd like to talk about the "hidden ROE" you've put your finger on. You talked about noticing less tolerance for the sensitive, those with greater attachment issues, and valuing emotional reactions. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think these things get at that hidden ROE.

I think the sensitive, the attached, and the emotional are welcome and wanted here. I have seen evidence of that over and over again. I am a member of two of those three clubs -- I'm sensitive and emotional, and these things are a valued part of my make-up. BPDR and my therapy have helped me harness these things about myself and use them in healthy, effective ways.

Sometimes behaviors play out on BPDR in ways that look to be unhealthy. Because of BPDR's recovery focus, when we see what looks like unhealthy behavior, we will try to direct it towards health. Once in a while, the person who's being redirected resists and can get pretty heated about it, and it starts a hot discussion. Sometimes an S/CL will inadvertently stick a foot in his/her mouth and make things worse. These times cause a lot of unrest across the board and lead to people feeling like you do. Does this feel like what has happened with you?

BPDR does have its moments. We're bound to as a community of people recovering from an emotional disorder led by volunteers who themselves are recovering. But in the four years I've been here, I've seen a lot more everyday recovery going on (with people talkling freely about what's going on with them) than problems like we've had lately, though I must say this recent mess has been the most difficult I've seen. I hope that as things calm down here that you will see the everyday recovery happening, too, and grow to feel fully comfortable to take part in it.

Peace,
jim

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Jim.

It's not about how people respond to me, personally, that's bothering me.

I do get concerned about some of the parallel threads that go on some of the time..like there'll be posts about something, and somebody else will start another thread that takes quite a critical stance of the issue without actually directly saying so.

But mostly what I find disconcerting is the way some people around here are treated - and yes, it has been worse lately. Much worse.

So what business is it of mine how others are treated?

I guess I do see it as my concern because it does stop me posting or limit what I post, because I don't want to get drawn into the firing line. It does feel that there is a gang mentality sometimes, and that I am never going to be a part of that gang (I don't actually want to be - but boy, I don't want to be on the polar-opposite side of it, either) which leaves me somewhat vulnerable.

Yes, Jim, those things you put your finger on are some of the hidden ROE.

Aqua/Marga - I suspect you're probably right. Time will tell.

I'm bothered by that too. How do you think it should be handled? Is it something you think the S/CL group should address? If so, in what manner -- PM, CC, within the thread itself?

Is it something that fellow community members could speak to the person about?

What if the person who started the critical thread says "But I'm just expressing my opinion, why can't I do that?" How does one respond to that?

What if the person is attacking the issue (whatever it is) but the perception is that the other person is being attacked?

We're open to suggestion and want to improve BPDR. What one person wants may not agree with what another person wants so some things are going to have to be a draw, with no one truly totally happy. (For example, some folks want more rules, some want more grey.)

[FWIW, there was a time when 99% of the one-on-one SCL discussion was handled in public and folks were bothered by "the public floggings" so many things got taken off-board. Now we've got issues where folks are crying "Foul!" because they're feeling abused in private where it's "easier to get away with being mean." I would love - quite seriously - to know the best way to thread that needle because both ways seem to be a "miss" for someone or other.]

Ash, I'm going to draw a deep breath and go right out on a limb here and call it how I see it:

I think the S/CL team is core to the problem

This is a small, small place. Much smaller than many other discussion forums. So if there is a pocket of people who are tightly knit and entrenched and seen as 'leaders', they're gonna have quite an impact on the dynamics of the place. Especially when they start to draw others into their orbit, intentionally or not, and proceed to subtly/not so subtly earmark people as worthy/unworthy of their time and energy. It sends really strong signals to the rest of the group about who is valued and who is not. It's social psyc 101.

Those who are not embraced by the core (and there's been a fair bit of 'you're in, you're not, you're acceptable, but you're not going on of late) don't have a lot of other places to affiliate with. Not like larger groups, where there might be a whole bunch of clusters of folk with differing views. So it is not like other boards, where the minority can find affiliation based on some common other interest. The only place of affiliation becomes in contrast with the 'others'.

As for the parallel threads...seems to me that those who start them are pretty darned confident they're not going to get pulled up. I don't think the question is, so much, what should we do about these threads? as what is it about the dynamics of this board that encourages/promotes them/makes them an acceptable part of the culture'?

I'm aware of an us and them thing, but its solely going on within me.

I actually noticed the "us" and "them" thing started happening for me right around the time all shit broke loose on this board about T-attachment. I lost respect for many people as a result of that thread and most probably haven't re-gained it. In fact, there are people that I avoid purposely because they have such strong opinions that they can't or are just not willing to put themselves into anybody else's shoes and see how it might actually be for them. They are never going to agree to disagree. They will blame others for their uncomfortable feelings and not stop and check in to see why something bothers them so much. I've found the same has come up with other subjects that seem to become hidden "no-no's" and I personally have problems with having my voice taken away from me. But, I'm not sure how my under-current of "them" and "us" affects anybody here. It's not like I'm discussing it all over the board or singling anybody out. It is a them and us thing that goes on inside of me.

And Yes, I do believe that the powers that be created the "them" and "us" thing by themselves, by allowing some topics and not allowing others. Topics that seem to be "major buggaboos" quickly get trampled underground. There's no seeing people where they are at. It's this is my opinon and I'm not budging on it. I also feel a strong lack of acceptance of people as they are. They're not working hard enough, or using the tools enough and again, I feel this creates an atmposphere of them and us. Those of us who are meeting the mark and those of us who are not.

I have no idea how this can be addressed from an admin point of view. Damage control for the future maybe - not singling out a group of people and hammering them into the floor?

Yeah, I obviously still have work to do on me, so the "them" and "us" thing isn't affecting my participation here.

PS: I also believe there is "us" and "them" between those of us who have chosen a more holistic path (my personal opinion) to recovery and those who are strictly CBT.