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IBF, we are not "pixels on a screen". what you see is. who wrote it is a person. the thoughts behind the words are from people.

as i type this, you see pixels. i feel my fingers hitting the keys, and i hear a click each time. i look up to see what i misspelled and back space. i reread what i typed and mentally review it.

pleaseunderstand this is a argument as old as the net. are we real or not? many think we arent, and thus behave any way they choose because we cant smack em for it.

many, like me, recognize a real person is sitting here typing and as such, is quite real.

choose which you want to believe, but know its yours only. i dont believe we are "only pixels" or bytes in a server.

""""Not to downplay or invalidate anyone's parking ticket on this question.. I know the social dynamics of these places can be astoundingly powerful, which is bizarre when you realize we're all pixels on a screen.""""

it is powerful because we are PEOPLE.

thank you for considering this view point.

and thank God i am not in a us/them anything. im me, i shall stay me, in my space not with any herd.

wondering, if you want a CC, what ya wanna discuss as a conflict? pick one, and holler at me. your just so quiet, so nice, not loud or outspoken like me (read much nicer and better a person than me) so really, i envy you terribly for that. i love the days i dont see "Jody" on some CC and think oh shit, now what did i do?

I think some open dialog about this absolutely makes me feel better. But I don't want this to just be about me 'feeling better' - I don't believe this is something that is just in my head or that the discomfort is mine alone, which is why I started this thread.

Amanda's identification re CBT vs Holistic (to my mind, more structured, defined vs eclectic) nails at least some of the 'difference' that I am struggling to pinpoint. It's good to know what some of those differences are. Then, I suppose, we can at least look at them and say 'ok, so we come from a different theoretical orientation, but I still really relate to THIS bit of what you're saying'.

Amanda, like you, I know this problem is within me as well as outside of me - but I'll say it again, I don't think that is the whole story. If I did, I'd just say 'ok, this place is overwhelmingly populated by people who think really differently to the way I do, and maybe I'd feel more comfortable somewhere else'.

I agree wholeheartedly with your take on things, and think you have done a great job of putting words to some of the feelings i can't quite pinpoint.

Hi Susanna:

I had a thought as I was reading this thread and thought I'd share it.

In my experience and from what I've observed over time, most of the people who are here have had to learn how to 'read a room' really quickly, since so many of us came from chaotic backgrounds where we never knew how the wind was going to blow and what (often bad) thing was going to happen next.

As a result I know that I, for one, can be really sensitive to the undercurrents I feel in a given situation.

What I do about that varies now and has varied throughout my lifetime.

I used to ignore them and drift off to a place of magical thinking so that I could act in my expected (of myself) role in whatever the situation was = usually as the peace-maker and often in an unhealthy, enabling, caretaking fashion.

Later I went waayyyy the other direction, and started confronting everything I felt, saw or whatever, as if every situation was life or death, (as it was for a number of people, maybe even you, when they were a kid/growing up), but that sapped my energy really fast and I also learned that I was not always completely accurate with my 'read', although usually I was and still am.

Nowadays I still take the 'read' at some level (and in whatever situation I find myself in) I suppose, but, by working with the tools, I've come to a place where more often than not, I can decide when to speak up and when not to.

In this instance it sounds like you have analyzed the situ. and have determined that it is important for the Community as well as yourself to speak up about this, and I think that is a good decision.

So now the question is, it seems to me, where to go from here.

I've admired that people have acknowledged that there are undercurrents and recent events and that those are all real, thus, I hope and it would seem appropriate, 'validating' yours and others' 'read[s]'. Only you and each person here can determine that for themselves, of course, so this is just my perception I'm speaking to here.

There is an open dialogue going on here which seems safe so far - [my 'read']. That's another good thing.

What do you think would be another good step forward and through this? I think that's what Beth was asking actually, but I'll let Beth speak to that issue if she and/or you deem it necessary or want to or whatever ... [Candle being particularly articulate on this last sentence = NOT - lol ].

Candle :halo

I think I am also finding that I also did both at one point or another, now I think I am trying to find a middle ground, and I am finding that I am seeing things from a 3rd-person stand-point, which is interesting. What would've gotten me so stirred up before, isn't. And I think it's part of not taking things personally, that I am stepping outside of the situation and viewing it and participating somewhat in that way rather than acting as a participant. I can see things a little more clearly that way.

Susanna, it's interesting that you and Amanda have identified CBT and Holistic differences, because I never considered it from that stand-point, although I can see that I sortof was without knowing it. I can see a definite difference between those approaching it as a lifestyle change and those here for CBT purposes, although it doesn't make me feel there is a division. I try as much as possible to view BPDR as a whole that could be improved (as anything could), and not as a divided entity.

As such is life.... if I work hard, I get rewards and acceptance from others. If I act out, I get punished, in some way. If I get passed over for a promotion, I didn't do something good enough. It's up to me to figure out what. If I get thrown out of my guild (for example), for not being up to spec, guess what? Too bad for me. I'll have to do the work and do it up to spec if I want to be accepted and included. There are standards everywhere in life, some higher and some lower.

What actually bugs me (which lately I have learned to accept), is that the ones acting out are getting what I think is way too much response. Can I just say I think Ash is a liar (or some other colorful label, and of course, think of some cocamamey reason to back it up), and then get all sorts of attention for that, from all sorts of people? And if attention is what I want, aren't I getting it by acting out? It's so easy to get attention here from all sorts of people who want to either be involved in drama (and get their emos on), or try to convince someone of something for whatever reason, or from people who want to argue, or from people who want to help or neutralize, when sometimes, they just need to be ignored. I'm not assuming the intent of any party, I'm observing, and this is based on a fictional example.

Thanks, all. It's interesting to see this situation through so many sides of the prism and reflected in so many peoples' personal experiences.

I think what is good is that pretty much everybody is acknowledging that an issue exists. Even if we all have slightly different takes on the same issue.

Candle, I liked what you said and it certainly resonated with me. I like even better that you didn't add a conclusion of 'so therefore you are seeing things that aren't there', and I don't think you intimated that I was over-reacting. Just rather that I (or people like me) am more sensitive to seeing conflict than others because of what I'm used to.

Just because I am a sensitive soul/we are sensitive souls - does it mean that there needs to be change, or that that needs to be accommodated? I don't know. I'm interested to find myself in this position, because irl I am the classic 'get up, dust yourself off and move on' sort of a person - both with others and (especially with) myself. I roll my eyes at people who expect special treatment because they are somehow more sensitive/hurt/whatever. I am just not at all touchy-feely about things.

There's a great buddhist saying about how it makes more sense to put a pair of shoes on than to cover the world in leather, and it's sort of how I try to live.

How that applies to this situation...I don't know. Interesting question. I don't think I am asking anybody to lay down leather for me (so to speak!).

I think for me, it is enough to be able to give voice to some disquiet that I suspect/ed I wasn't alone in feeling, and try to make some more sense of why I am feeling that way.

If the response had been a swift and angry 'what-the-hell-are-you-talking-about, 'you're imagining things', 'why don't you just leave if you don't like it?', then I would have had to have thought really hard about whether I still want to be here. Then I would've had to have taken my shoes & plodded off in another direction altogether.

Sorry - we cross posted, so my post is a bit out of order.

Aqua, I think the thing is...not all of us use the tools religiously or absolutely, or even buy into them. I, for one, use an 'approximation' of them, gleaned from all over the place. And I don't come here to be held to my recovery...to have others leap on me for what they might see as dysfunction (and that I might see as perfectly normal behaviour). Ditto for medicalization - I see a lot of that going on around here, too. Agree that if somebody is behaving absolutely outrageously, they need to be hauled up and held to account. But that is few and far between.

Also this issue of acting out...is fine if one has signed up to be called to account for a certain behavior. I don't see that here (I mean, outside of the ROE which we all engaged with. Am talking about the unofficial ROE). I see a set of 'rules'...maybe expectations are a different word... that are not explicit and not even apparent until somebody inadvertently violates them.

Calista, understand what you're getting at with the 'why is this familiar' and am sure I could psychoanalyze myself til the cows come home...but am choosing to stay in the here and now with this one. Yes, it might be useful for me at some stage to relate this to other similar situations if it becomes a recurring pattern in my life or if I have a very intense emotional reaction to it. But it's not, and I don't. And going down that path sort of implies that I am somehow misreading what is going on right now, or imbuing it with a different meaning based on my history. Which I don't think I am (see my last post to Candle) Does that make sense?

You've packed an awful lot into that paragraph. I agree that there is a group of leaders, and that because we lead, we impact the board's dynamics. I'm one of those leaders. We were all asked to do a job, and we all try to carry it out. As I've done my part, I've come to know a little bit about some of the other leaders as I've served here. But I feel neither tightly knit nor entrenched with the rest of the leaders, and I feel sure that most of the S/CL team can say the same thing. (FWIW, I'm friends in RL with one of the S/CL team, but our friendship predates either of us joining the S/CL team, and outside of S/CL discussions here we don't wear our S/CL hats with each other.)

I also think that most of the S/CL team would say that we simply want to provide a place where people can safely work on their recovery, primarily via using the tools the site provides. I do not believe we are interested -- I'm sure as hell not, anyway -- in creating a worthy/unworthy caste system here, and fomenting drama by luring people into our webs. How you appear to experience this is, I think, not too different from my 5th grade classroom. Every bully in the 5th grade ended up in there because the teacher was known for strict discipline. He divided his time between the bullies (because their antics demanded the time) and the students working to improve because he wanted to see them achieve. That was all the time he had. The A students and the solid-C students got almost none of his time and, I'm sure, felt disenfranchised. I was one of those A students and I felt pretty much ignored. I used to think all that teacher did was watch for one of the bullies to pull something so he could land on them, like he enjoyed it or something. With 30 years (good lord) of perspective on it, I think now that he would rather have taught all of us, but that bully antics diverted his attention a great deal.

I am confident that the S/CL team would rather spend all of its time offering its experience, strength, and hope to people who are working on themselves here. For that matter, I think the S/CL team needs to refocus on that work. But I also think that the S/CL team has to monitor for behavior here that disrupts things such that people are hindered from doing that work on themselves, and take action on it.

Peace,
jim

Calista, I just reread your post, and there's the difference right there:



I don't want to 'work through' this. I didn't raise the question to get healed/fixed/improved or whatever else working through implies. I raised it because I wanted to check out my perspective on a situation, to see whether I was reading things right, and to get some feel for what the implications would be if I was to voice my disquiet.

I don't want to 'work through it' because I don't think there's anything wrong with either my perceptions or my asking the question - nor is it bothering me sufficiently for me to need to process it in any way.

I think (from the bulk of the responses) that some people share my concerns about feeling a split here and what the implications of that might be, some people don't see any split at all, some people see it but don't see it as a problem (or see it as the problem of each individual).

And that's fine. What would really bother me to see would be a great rush of 'oh, there's no problem here. The problem is in your head & your past. Go look there', when there is some objective evidence that it is NOT just about my need to apply the tools or whatever.

Jim, sorry, missed your post in the rush.

Have to head out soon, so if I stop posting abruptly and don't get back to this til tomorrow, please don't think I'm avoiding it. Just have to go and do IRL things.

Yes, it was as packed para. Sorry - I was trying to get a lot of ideas into one place. The reason I wanted to spell some of that out was, I have seen here recently some pretty heavy denial of the power dynamics that are (naturally) and work. It's good that you acknowledge that there are leaders, and there job is to lead.

I didn't say anything about S/CL's luring people into webs. That is a way more sinister implication that I would have wanted to make, by a long shot. I think a better way to put it would be that people gravitate to power, or the ideas that are endorsed/supported by those in power. So it's more a case of being a magnet, whether you like it or not, than drawing people in.

I agree that all of this is distracting and resource-draining, and I certainly don't want to start something that is un-contained and provocative.

I have stuff to say about the classroom analogy, because it doesn't quite fit for me...but I need to think some more about how to put it...thanks for thinking this through, though.

Thanks, Calista.

I appreicate that this must be making your eyes glaze over by now. I haven't participated in any of the other threads, so apologies if it's old ground.

Re working through my discomfort - made me smile. I am OK with discomfort. So long as my eyes are open to what is going on around me, and I can see what is real (and am not gaslighted or misreading things). It is knowing the lie of the land that matters to me, not any sort of resolution.

In terms of what I am looking for..I'm not after any sort of quick-fire solution. I think that would be a highly unrealistic expectation. Plus I didn't start this thread to get change. I started it to ask some questions about what is going on around here, and whether my perceptions were 'off', or shared by some other people.

I also don't ever like to sit by and see stuff happen that makes me uncomfortable without putting my hand up and saying 'I don't think this is OK'. And I've done and said that. So that's fine.

Appreciate your time, hope we can put it to bed now.

This is interesting to me, because I don't think I have seen anything from this angle.

I try to go by what is reasonable. Yes, I do use the tools, and yes, they appear to be working. But I also think if someone implies something that is based on reason that is faulty, or assumes something, or makes a decision based on feeling, or isn't impeccable with their word, or can't control their responses, or acts in a certain way that simply won't be tolerated elsewhere, it won't get very far in this world no matter what I believe or practice. I try to be realistic based on the world I live in, and based more on a model of happy, healthy living AND success. The problem is, now that I have used The Four Agreements and the other tools, and seen success using them, it's so easy to see some of the things others are doing to drive themselves to failure. Hindsight is 20/20. And there's the rub.... one's trying to help by suggesting that others use the tools, based on successes they've seen within themselves, yet if someone doesn't want to use them, they may see that as me judging them and leaping on them for not applying them (although I don't think you are saying I specifically am, but I could hehe). The intent is good.

I do see what you are saying - and it's a fine line the SCL/CL team is walking to try to accommodate all people. I actually want people to tell me when I do something wrong lol. And I am and would like everyone to be strict on rules and applying the tools. I'm like that irl too. I think a lot of people have different ideas of what they want. And I'm glad to see your pov here, because it's shown me a different view that's also pertinent.

I also realize from this thread that I can be heard, without being part of drama. And I also have realized that I can't expect others to understand or want what I want - I think I needed that reinforced to me. I was feeling somewhat like, "Well, why can't everyone see what I see?" And it's easy for me to fall into that individualist mode of thinking that everyone should think the same things are important that I do. Just won't happen. Doesn't mean they won't give my ideas the benefit of the doubt, or that I am not having some influence on the whole.

Calista, I am truly sorry if I have not heard you/swept over things. Certainly my mood has changed through the course of this dialog, and I am a great deal less defensive than I was to begin with.

I would be interested in hearing what I've not heard...if you can be bothered after all this...it would be helpful to me.

It is entirely possible/probable that I have just lumped you in with 'those thems' S/CLs and not really seen you as much of an individual at all. So please accept my apologies if that is the case. Ironic, isn't it?

I do really appreciate the time you have taken in responding to this.

Hallelujah on both counts, Aqua!

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I use an approximation of the tools and I can't stand being jumped on for what others see as dysfunction; that to me seems normal and ok (like attachment for example.)



Am seeing this too. Like the recent incident in CC about rule breaking that wasn't apparently obvious to me how I'd broken any rules, but apparently I just did! This is just one example of hidden rules that we don't know about, until somebody breaks them (or the rules change???)

I have psychoanalysed myself and I know what the core issue for me is and that's "I do not like having my voice taken away from me from the powers that be." I don't appreciate being stifled because somebody else can't handle to hear what I have to say/talk about. I don't like when rules drastically change out of the blue. I grew up in that environment where I was not allowed a voice, a reality of my own, and opinions of my own. It didn't help me grow into a healthy adult did it? I turned into a doormat who just went along with whatever. I'm aware that recently I've done a pendulum swing of sorts and have become a lot more vocal (and I admit that maybe the needle of the pendulum has swung a wee bit too far the other way :halo ) but, this where I have needed to go in order that I can find the grey.

Nice discussion guys. Susanna, this thread has helped me a lot too. Like you, I feel validated that my perceptions of what are going on here aren't completely off the wall.

Best of luck to you. I hope you got what you needed from this thread.

I don't think this is meant to be a hidden rule. I think the rules are confusing in the way they are stated. I've been meaning to bring up this issue when I get the time, to the SCL/CL team.

This just dawned on me, and is a great analogy. That's exactly what this is like, jr. high. Ha. Gives me a whole new perspective on things.

Thanks for the great explanation.

Leading by example is important for us all, not just the leadership team. I see it as an effective means of peer pressure. As a special education teacher, I have often used peer pressure to my benefit because it is an effective influence on behavior. I had one student who would walk into my classroom and cause a scene over something that happened in another class or in the halls, something that had nothing to do with my class or the other students she was fussing at, and I would only have to say "your friends are watching. . . do you want them to see you act this way?" She would settle down immediately because it was then she realized that she was only causing a scene that made herself look bad. Sometimes the kindest thing we can do for someone is to point out how they come across so they can work to change if they want to be seen in more positive ways.



It is important to be able to do reality checks with each other. When we are involved in situations where people do not want to recognize a problem because that would require them to take some ownership of the problem, there is only so much that can be done to resolve the issue. Since it takes more than one person to have conflict, it also takes more than one person to resolve the conflict. It is usually those who are the most responsible for causing conflict that are the least willing to do their part to resolve the conflict. Sometimes walking away from those situations is the only way to be effective because having a conversation with someone who is not willing to be a part of solving the problem is a waste of effort. The tools can sometimes backfire when used as a means of saying "it's your stuff and I am not going to own any of it" when that is not the truth in the situation.

But if that's all you got from it, then you missed the point. jim