BPDRecovery.com: Forums

I am writing this as an individual. Yes, I'm an SCL, but this is not something I have discussed with anyone else in or out of leadership.

I have been here longer than anyone else besides Ash and Nik -- since the spring of 2002. I've been a mod or an Admin or an SCL or whatever title might have been bestowed, from ezboard through a new board, back to ezboard and then here, since some time in 2003. Five years now. Over all that time, we have certainly had ups and downs, disruptive members, meltdowns of all kinds including among the various people in leadership positions. But never have I seen anything like what has been going on in the last few months.

I honestly and truly don't get this.

I have kept mostly silent on the board lately because I totally don't know what to say to people.

The leadership team is not doing *anything* different than we ever have. Nothing. But all of a sudden we can't do anything right. We are supposedly an "us" who has painted a whole group of members totally black; we aren't listening; there are rules that aren't rules; we are wrong when we fail to intervene in this or that situation, but then when we try to figure out what we could have done differently, we are blown off; we are ruining the board; and so on (and on).

I'm not saying that there haven't been situations where we could have handled some things better, but that has *always* been true over the five years that I have been here, and there has never been this kind of stuff going on. Never. And I can't begin to figure out what's different now.

I have read through thread after thread in here and in CC, trying to reach some kind of understanding, and I honestly can't figure it out. From where I'm sitting, I'm doing the same kinds of things that I've been doing forever, but now it's wrong. I'm rude, I'm invalidating, I'm unfair, I'm not following the rules, I'm a part of a cartel that is against you and is trying to drive you from the board, I'm betraying you. I can have a perfectly civil conversation with some of you in PM, which I come away from thinking that there is mutual respect, but then the next minute I'm part of the vicious leadership team that is utterly evil. (That's not true of *everyone* I have PMd with, just most of you.) I see my friends and co-leaders offering help, and then getting lambasted or dismissed because they have misinterpreted a feeling or a need or they have given the "wrong" answer to a question.

And still, I have no real idea what it is that you're asking for.

More and more, I'm feeling like the "us" is you guys, or at least a bunch of you, and the "them" is the leadership team.

If *any* of you can write out, in simple concrete language, what it is that you want us to do differently, I'd surely appreciate it.

I'm not making any promises, other than to read and carefully consider anything anybody might say in this or any of the several other threads currently going on on the dissent around here. I'm not going to be perfect. There is never going to be a totally well-defined rule for every situation around here. I'm not going to step in and referee every dispute between any two or more members here. But if anyone can spell out, not in abstract terms (I don't do abstract well), what it is I should concentrate on, I absolutely will consider it and dialogue to the best of my ability about it to clarify.

I also want to say that I'm not going anywhere. I plan to stick around until Ash no longer wants me here or my real-life situation changes to an extent that I can no longer spend the time here. So some of you can either make nice and try to help me, or you can put up with my current modus operandi, because nothing will change until I know what and why I need to change.


P.S. For some reason the board is not letting me access my PMs at the moment. I have one waiting there from somebody, but I can't read it. I'm not getting any success either when I try to log out -- I get a screen that tells me I've logged out, but then I'm not -- I was hoping that logging out and then back in would solve the situation. So if someone has sent me a PM, I'm sorry I haven't responded but I can't read it. And for the time being, if anyone has anything to say to me here or elsewhere, I'd appreciate it if you would respond either in this thread or in CC. Thanks.

I think the PM is from me, Sari. It's been stuck in my outbox for a while. It will have to wait and that's ok.

Thanks.

I have seen Ash under attack here over the years I have been here (and on the ezboard) and I think that her going to a leadership team model has potentially opened up the attack to a wider group of people and not just herself now. Could that be what has changed?



Maybe it is the silence that has allowed this stuff to brew below the surface while breaking the silence and getting it out in the open may be the best way to mend "what has been going on in the last few months" in the same way therapy is intended to bring unconscious stuff to the surface. It could be that "walking on eggshells" is not the most effective way to deal with Borderline behavior.

I sent you a PM Sari. Can you tell me if you received it? Thanks!

BG, you can tell if a PM has been received by checking in your message folders. If you see it in the "outbox" folder, it has not been received. If it's in the "sent box" folder, it has been.

I don't know what's different. I do think that a lot of the problem, maybe all of it, is too much group think. People looking at people in groups instead of as individuals. Starting with seeing an "us" instead of a "me" which to the "us and them" (with or without the "versus") rather than a "me and others". And I think "me and others" thinking doesn't as much tend to lead to the "versus" thinking.

As far as what Denim said ("going to a leadership team model"), I know that having a leadership team is not at all something new, not a change. But it could be there is a change in the visibility of the leadership team. More awareness that there's a leadership team. I think a lot of that is due to members bringing it up, rather than community leaders doing anything different. I do wonder if somehow the label change ("community leader" and "senior community leader" rather than "moderator" and "admin") has something to do with that. I'm not saying it does. Just a possibility I'm throwing out there.

Excellent point, Ellen. The term "leader" carries so many connotations, all in the reader's mind. Many negative as well as positive connotations. Many thoughts about what it means that I am NOT a leader, but so and so is. Connotations about "them" being leaders and "us" being followers.. all kinds of embers just waiting to flare.

Moderator and admin also carry a few, but not nearly as much ammo for emotional reaction. Banana and squash might carry even less! And still as words they'd do the job just fine. Oh, wait.. those are "guy" words.. ok.. "mango" and "pomegranate". The have the effect of making a distinction if you need one to be made, but are not so loaded for trouble.

Thanks IBF. I'll go check now. :biggrin

My PM to Sari is still sitting there. I wonder why it won't "send"?

Because, as Sari pointed out extensively in her first post, she and as far as I know she alone, is having a problem with her PM's.

I don't get it either. I'm still catching up on the posts though.

Sari, try clearing your cookies.

My PMs are working again. Don't know what happened. BG, I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

Enough now about my malfunctioning PMs. Does anybody have anything to offer about why things are so screwed up around here now and what specifically has to change?

I already did offer some thoughts in this thread.

Hi ((Ellen)):

I was just now going to find a place to thank you for helping me straighten our and simplify my waayyy scattered stream of consciousness written expression yesterday. It helped, and I appreciate[d] it! )

all im trying to do is change how i react and somehow heal some of this crap inside me.

i do appreciate GREATLY that the mods have begun to speak up when things are said inappropriately. even when it comes to me... lol...and calista told me i was wrong. yes, i was and im glad she spoke up.

im just working on me...and saw i was wrong in asking others to not mention me. that was my way to avoid my own crap, putting it off on another, and wrong. trying to control others instead of myself. DOH.

what do to do about other things...is why im not a mod! grins*

there has to be things not acceptable. even tho that is when we learn the most.

whoa shit hit submit. oops.

obviously telling 2 people to leave each other alone isnt working. it prevents us from healing the problem.

letting a all out knock down isnt acceptable either.

maybe just keeping things respectful? reminders when we arent speaking respectful?

im not sure.

i mean, denim triggers me. i trigger amanda. what should we do? i dont know. i am trying to own my feelings and behaviors and somehow learn to live with it. but its hard...

I often find that listening carefully.. non-judgmentally.. to understand both the thought content and the emotion involved in it, and reflecting that back before reacting to the thought... prevents a great deal of conflict. Most every time.

It's strange to me that most all of us believe the same thing, yet it is a very rare practice around here. Maybe we need more practice and discipline... ooops.

Ditto. I find that when I read from a third-person, as if I am not involved at all, that I can see all of the emotions that are behind the words of all, and understand more the thoughts driven by emotion. And I can even do that with myself. If I find I am feeling any emotion, I can go away and feel that and try to understand it. And then I can come back later and read it as if it wasn't written to me, but to someone else. And then I can see it for what it is, so much more clearly, without it running through my own filters.

OK, I'm trying to wrap my brain around some of this. I'm really distracted today, and I'm sorry I didn't acknowledge Ellen and Denim for their earlier posts.




It's true that we didn't used to be called a "team" per se, and there didn't used to be a two-tiered system. Way back on ezboard (the first time) we were just called "admins," and half the time we had different -- and silly -- titles. Perhaps back then we weren't seen so much as a team, and more as individuals. But we've had our current format for several years now, without always having this level of turmoil.

Is it because calling ourselves a "team" leads to people thinking it's totally groupthink among us? That we're all just Ash's puppets, and anger at Ash means that the whole group of us is then distrusted as well, so that when one of us tries to intervene in a situation the whole conversation is poisoned from the start?

It's not true at all that we're a solid union. There are way too many different personalities and styles for that. There are frequent and sometimes quite vocal differences of opinion about stuff that goes on here. But if each of us spoke up with our own opinion about this situation or that one, there would be total chaos. So our response is generally more measured than that. We look for a consensus, if there is one. Sometimes we vote on Plan A or Plan B. If there is one Leader who has a better relationship with a member who is involved in the problem, he or she might volunteer to approach the member and see if they can find a way to work things out. In many cases, once a Leader *has* contacted another member, the rest of us stay out of it deliberately. In the past, more might have joined in, but we found that that was seen as the Admins "piling on," and not helpful.

This has worked pretty well for a long time, so I'm still not sure what's so apparently wrong now.

About Ash... It seems like she has always been radioactive for a few members at any one time. I think that that's probably always going to be true. But on balance, over the bunch of years that I've been here, there are *way* more people who have benefitted from this community and have been grateful to her for providing it and leading it. I think it's sad that lately she's been subject to such really nasty attacks when people don't understand her or disagree with her. I just don't think it's necessary to do it that way. I don't understand what the goal is -- to drive her away from her own board? to somehow manhandle her into a changed person? I don't think that's going to happen, and I very much hope it doesn't. She's just as entitled to have her own thoughts, feelings, and opinions as anybody here. She makes no claim to perfection. If she personally can't relate to something that someone is talking about on the board, why does it so frequently seem to be interpreted as a total repudiation of the person, a complete invalidation of everything the person stands for? Do people hold their friends and acquaintances to the same standard, that if they can't agree about something then the friend must be rejecting everything about them? Isn't it possible to, as several people around here like to say, take what works for you and leave the rest?



So, Denim, do you think we (the various members of the Leadership Team? or me specifically?) should speak up more frequently? Do you have any thoughts about what I talked about above, that if more of the Leaders get involved in any one situation that there will be a reaction of "now they're piling on me?" Because I really do think that often, for me at least, it's easier to respond to one person at a time, unless I ask for multiple opinions. For example, in retrospect, I think that we (the Team) should probably have stepped in earlier in response to your not-so-veiled negative references to "another member" here on the board when they became repetitive and began to be disruptive. But when Candle CC'd you, the rest of us decided to stay out of it for the time being. If I, or any of the others, had started yet another CC to you expressing our concern, would that have been better? Or even if it wasn't necessarily better for *you*, would it have been better for the community as a whole to see that the whole Team saw this as a problem? (If others besides Denim have an opinion about this, go ahead and chime in.)

It's often really difficult for us to know where to draw the line sometimes when it comes to intervening in a situation or not. I honestly don't think it's healthy for us to jump in every time there's a dispute. That's why we created CC, so two people could work things out, because there are always going to be disagreements (if not full-bore arguments) in real-life and we have to learn to handle them and to (hopefully) be respectful when there's conflict. So a lot of the time we stay out of a one-on-one kind of thing, unless it spreads to involve more people on the board and thus is more disruptive. I'm not really comfortable with some of the stuff about you and others saying that so-and-so can't post to me, and sometimes wanting the Leaders to enforce that. It gets way too complicated, for starters (OK, you and the other person stay out of threads that either of you have started, but what if you both want to respond in a third person's thread?). But I think it can promote and prolong a victim mentality, and asking others to fight your battles for you by being enforcers isn't the best way to learn how to handle conflict on your own. Why, if there is no way that you're going to get along with this other person, can you not just ignore any post by that person -- just skip by it, refuse to even read it? Or do you (and others) think that we (the Leaders) really *should* be refereeing these disputes, and I'm way off base with my thinking?

I don't know. I've been muddling my way through all this for several hours now (I write *very* slowly!) so I'll quit here for now. I really need to get myself some dinner, and I haven't responded to BG's PM yet.

Feedback welcome.

sari, i think its very valuable this is being discussed openly. thank you and all the mods.

i prefer the term mod. moderators. not leader, as that implies something that may not be there. actually, it implies a ton, when you think about it. i like mod better. i mean, who wants a general in a war who cant load his gun? leader implies more knowledgable, better, higher rank. yall admit you are still healing and are human. maybe mod would work better?

so anyways.

i like the way it is going now. when i, or another, pops off with something said wrong, a mod says respectfully, jody, that is wrong. we dont want that here. (calista did me that way and i liked it and appreciated it) . i thrive on that. literally. thrive on boundaries and being told when i mess up.

whther this situation is part of it or not, i found it very hard to deal with when no mod at all stepped in with me and denim. to hear negative things so constantly, i believe, would hurt a "normal", much less someone with mental /emotional issues. so i think that is a case if you see a member unable to cope, step in. ask in a pm. are you ok? can i help you cope? just that would have been nice for me. i dont believe flaming should be allowed at all. most boards have a no flame policy to prevent all out war. i think most everyone knows what constitutes flaming and if one has a question, they can ask it.

i think the inconsistenct way rules are enforced poses a problem. for me, anyways. it might just be my issue, and i need to work on it. people with inner child stuff, like bpd is, will not react well to unfair enforcement of certain rules. imho*

it could be things just got comfy and slack. maybe cause its winter, maybe cause most have had the flu, or a combo of all the above and more. i dont learn half as much in quiet times but drama kills us also. we just havent been able to stay at a balance.

this stuff takes time to learn,. i mean years. to learn how to always respond correctly and as a adult. we can expect it but i dont think we should be surprised when we dont always get it. thus, the respectful reminders and eventually a warning and eventually the "deactivation" for a time being to get the point across. and i have been deactivated, and it worked wonders for me. it was only for 24 hours but it sure made a impression on me. i was close to another yesterday. i wouldnt have been surprised had i gotten one. i probably deserved one.

a mod had said to me he/she saw setting these rules/boundaries as punishing and she/he hated to punish. (he/she to protect who it was without their permission to use names)

i said it is not punishment. it is help. it is not enabling by saying look, you need to behave. we all do kids this way. is setting a boundary for a 3 yr old wrong? nope. same here. try to look at it as helping, not hurting. cause someone allowed to rant unopposed is def not being helped. the person bearing the brunt isnt, the person doing the behavior isnt. its helpful to keep those rules in place. humans feel safe with them. ie..red light..stop. green light..go. same thing. without it, our streets would end up in a traffic jam in mins. everyone needs boundaries of what is not acceptable behavior.

your opening up about the whole group is helpful. too often we hear its non of your business because the "leaders" have decided in some closed meeting. just not helpful. reveal a little. not all, not quotes exactly, but reveal a bit more. we dont need secret, "leaders", we need a group. not a team. leader team is almost asking for trouble. try a moderator group. see how much better it sounds?

re the idea of one person not speaking to another. i have been guilty of asking this. and i was wrong. it was nothing more than my selfish want to avoid dealing with something. and wanting another person in the middle to blame. how wrong was that! i see it now and i wont do it again. i will not ask a mod to tell someone something, i will not "not speak to another or of another". i wont do it mean, or ugly, for sure. that would come under a diff rule. but in passing, i will from now on. i was trying a cop out, and i see it now. it was childish. speaking for me, aint happening.

neither is the description of "a person here who has green hair and is 25" stuff. say it or shut up. hopefully talk about the issue itself one has, and not the person. that should be a rule too. lol. no judging anothers soul. no saying " i think you are selfish, or dumb, or old" or whatever. how the hell do we know anyways? we dont. leave it out of posts. its pointless and really only is self describing.

whew. thats my ideas. thanks for listening! jody

I believe that Ash stands for something in my mind.... no matter how much I tell myself it isn't realistic, I believe there are things happening at a subconscious level that are stirring up all sorts of feelings regarding past situations for me, even so far back as kindergarten, that have to do with authority figures. I have not really discussed it much, I was able to change some of it, but there are still tons of feelings and confusion I have yet to work out concerning my past and authority figures or leaders. I have not acted on most of it, but that doesn't mean it is not happening. I'm very confused about it all. Sometimes I hate Ash, for no real reason at all. :/

I think we have to keep in mind that people could be reacting to feelings and patterns from their past, that may not make sense today. I think it would help if the people involved would try their best to step back and evaluate their own actions and to see more clearly that their actions are speaking for how they feel, and are possibly based on a past experience. I feel all sorts of turmoil lately regarding this very thing.

How do I think I need to act today, regardless of how I feel? How do I want to feel about the Leadership team? What would be the best way to feel, that would benefit me and others the most in life, and can I go toward that direction by changing my thoughts?

I know I'm not gonna get past this until I work through what the heck is going on inside. And that might take awhile...

Yes, I think that it would have been helpful if the community could have seen that the whole team saw it as a problem. Silence is the same as support. I don't think the leadership team should be expected to "babysit" and solve every conflict, but this situation has been way over the top.

(Regarding Ash)

I suspect there isn't a goal. People reacting instead of thinking about what they are doing. Or maybe you could say the goal is simply to express their thoughts and feelings, or moreso, to somehow, in expressing them, have those feelings somehow taken care of. I tell you my feelings and you fix them for me so I don't hurt.

Just a possibility. I can't get in the heads of those who do this.

Sari -

Thanks for opening this up for discussion. I realize it's a real tough situation to take on and can create a huge can of worms- but, perhaps too it can put the worms back in the can by bringing out in the open the various undercurrents that are driving the board these days.

I also appreciate each person who has been willing to participate.

I don't view the us vs them thing strictly as a mgmt/member issue. I also don't think the problem is about the mgmt team sticking up for each other. Least not outright. I know I expect a united management team. I just don't feel that is presented- and at times it's presented in a gang mentality methodology vs a 'this what we (bpdr) are about'. Sometimes its more important to talk it out- like you are allowing to occur right now, than just sending it underground or to the back burner till next time.

Mainly tho, I want consistent enforcement of the rules. Consistent and across the board. Too often this doesnt occur. And as always how one is called out makes a huge difference- something a lot of mods are very considerate about. And, lol, I think when they are considerate, then receipent often is also.

Likewise, I want, expect even, that that consistent enforcement occurs from top to bottom. From Ash to the newest member just signed up today (tho yes I understand providing leeway for newbies).

You asked whether there was a feeling that you are all Ash's puppets. In all honesty- yes. I do. The only reason is that I've not seen Ash called out for Breaking roe's / not using the 4 agrees / untwisting.

More to the point tho, I don't get how there is no us/them mentality when in fact Ash her self is creating it- moreso than any single mod or group of mods. Every few months Ash selects a group of people that she is tired of and she takes this to the board.

Awhile ago she was the one who posted that people should not post of specifics but in generalities but for months now, she continues to target specific groups- and she rotates. I don't see the benefit in this other than for her to get rid of one or two she deemed undesirable.

Everytime she targets a group (or in particular instances individuals) she is creating an us/them environment. They(them) are the undesirables. Us are those that don't fit that classification. This has been going on for months, and has, as I mentioned changed, so I guess we are all supposed to take refuge in the fact that tomorrow we can slide back into the desireable group?

I don't understand how this behavior is not considered borderline. I dont see how on a board that professes happy healthy living this is considered such. I dont see this as recovery oriented. I see it as anything but benefical - to anyone. I don't think it takes much to review this behavior in light of the 10 twists and find a few (or more). I don't see how this is living according to the 4 agrees- how does 'doing your best' fit into this? What is best about such behavior? How is this being impeccable with ones word? How is this not making assumptions about others? How does this fit in with the ROES?

Was her post to me (in particular) really a recovery oriented post? The one in which she replied to like 20 people and I was the only one she made assumptions about; held me responsible for her feelings; made judgements about me. I just dont get this. moreso I dont get how not one mod stepped up and commented on it. Would I have been able to do so without getting called out for it? Would the next member? Or, does that depend on your status ? us/them ?

US vs Them yes it exists. Ash thru her postings of what she approves/disapproves of splits the community. You would not have had people step forward saying they are considering leaving; people saying that they see an us/them if indeed one did not exist. Remember please that this is not 'me' or person 'x' or me and person x who are friends coming up with us/them.

If Ash needs to approve/disapprove of every person here, I again state that she has the right to make this a closed board- by invite only. But to publically ridicule people because she does not like them or a behavior they exhibit- is NOT HAPPY HEALTHY LIVING- is NOT RECOVERY ORIENTED- it can humiliate and invalidate. and what does BPD stem from- invalidation and humiliation.

Ive yet to see people make change based on invalidation or humliiation.
Why it is allowed, I do not understand.

(Also -lately there has been a number of posts that are judgements of groups ;persons; behaviors that have nothing to do with bpd; relationships; or someone working thru an issue- this to me only seems to be another way of highlighting differences and creating splits/factions/or us/them mentalities)

Confusing environment to be in.