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When I was an active addict, my ongoing addict behavior made led my then-wife to count on me to behave like an addict. When I got into recovery and stopped using, she still expected me to behave like an addict -- which kind of made sense given my long history. But I was changing, giving her new behavioral evidence on which to base her judgments. It was hard for her to believe that I might be changing, especially when I slipped up and behaved in one of the old ways. Do you blame her for doubting?

jim

I was talking specifically about my own situation... not everyone. I think I overdo it sometimes with watching and assessing others. And that is based on a fear that I won't know how to handle things if they go out-of-control. I don't really need that so much anymore, since I have a better understanding of the tools, know a little better how to use them, and have seen them work. I feel a little more confident that I have an answer in these situations I have been fearful of (now, if I can just really believe that).

As far as assessing how I handle situations, yes I do think assessing behaviors and then assessing how I handled situations may be necessary to become better at effective communications and to see what works. I agree. But I also know that there are people I can't at this time meet in the middle for various reasons. I also think I can go anywhere with the use of these tools and regardless of what anyone does or says, I can use them in order to protect myself. And that gives me a lot more confidence and a whole heckuva lot less of a reason to watch others. So what if they keep doing things I find annoying or rude (and these are people I can't meet in the middle with, for one reason or another)? The millionth time they do it, I can use the tools again (of course, I would've long-ago been bored by then lol). I think there's something to be said for that too. If I don't feel as if I will be able to communicate with someone (based on an assessment I have made from past events), I don't have to avoid them, I can continue on knowing that the tools are there if need be. And that's an option. Avoiding someone is handing them my power. And that has been based on a fear for me that they will treat me badly and I won't know how to deal with them.

Funny (in a peculiar way, not 'haha')... my dad is narcissistic and like one of the most judgmental individuals I know. A specific incident sticks out for me as an illustration -

During a chat many years ago, he went on in a critical manner about how his friend's wife left to be with another guy, and how it was devastating to their daughters. I could only nod while I bit my tongue and tried not to look incredulous as I listened and observed his righteousness. Couldn't my father see on his own that he had done the exact same thing to my mother and our family by leaving us for another woman (my 2nd grade teacher, no less, and my mom's 'friend')?
Nope.

Maybe a way negative judgmentalism hurts the judgmental one is that it keeps him from accepting - and therefore, addressing then correcting (if warranted) - his own mis-steps or flaws. As someone eluded to, it can be a veil that makes it difficult for us to realize a 'for real', if not content, existence.

thinkin here,
~ jr

I agree Denim. But I also think we sometimes need to give people the benefit of the doubt and not assume they will continually do the same thing over and over. I guess sometimes it's obvious that that will happen so you do have to protect yourself. But I think in the beginning you can try not to assume it will happen. As I said, there's a very fine line. When my H talks to me like that, it hurts my feelings because he is not giving me a chance to change and possibly do things differently. He's assuming I'll act a certain way before the actual event even possbily takes place. Then he puts me on the defensive and there is no growth on my part. Of course it's different with people who are close to each other and live together, as opposed to people on a board who don't even know each other in RL. But I am learning that even with people who I have clashed with (on the board) in the past, if I try to give them the benefit of the doubt I am usually happily surprised. That makes me feel good.

I really like wha Aqua had to say.



As I see it, it's not just about what they do, but what I can handle. If I know I can handle something, I don't have to avoid it. It's a matter of assessing the whole situation.

Two examples. The musician I know where we like each other, but having a healthy friendship doesn't seem to work so well. I don't choose to avoid running into him. Why? Two factors. One, yes, there's the difficulties, but there have also been pluses. Two, avoiding running into him would mean giving a lot up besides knowing him. And forgetting all about him, never being reminded of him, would mean giving even more up. I prefer not, so I've been learning how to deal with him and the relationship, and have done so pretty well. No need to avoid. I can cope. And those (now much less frequent) times when my emotions get all tangled, I can cope with that too.

Thing is, I can look at the situation and decide what to do with or without judgmentalism. Yeah, one can say I've made a judgement about the situation. Judgement in the sense of assessment. But, I don't think that's the kind of judgement that DPT says to avoid. And I know for certain that it's not the kind of judgement that I understand is to be avoided in the suggestion to not judge others (which is also in the Bible).

Looking back at the first post in this thread, Spottedpony talked about labels, and asking oneself if labelling another is helpful to oneself. I think about mental health labels. They can be useful. A mental health label is how we all got to this forum. But is a label (in a particular usage) a tool, or a constraint?

It's one think to say, "this BPD thing seems to fit me, so I'm going to look up information on BPD, and find BPD related online forums". It's another thing if I let that label define me, making that label the center of my sense of self.

The same kind of thing with other labels, and with labels on other people. And judgements too, even without labels. Is the judgement a tool to help me in coming up with a course of action? Or is it a constraint, is it how I define someone, does it become my total picture of who they are?

My other example now. Someone I know in an online community and in a real life community (the two are related). He treated me really bad in the past in the online community. He'd repeatedly say stuff about me that was grossly negative and not true, and wouldn't listen to my perspective.

I honestly considered leaving the online community, or, at least, not participating, because I just couldn't handle what he was doing. I wasn't willing to take the risk of him doing it again. The suggestions from a couple people that I could respond different weren't helpful. (As in, not responding in a way that would escalate it.) Because I wasn't willing to risk further negative comments to/about me from him. After a talk with a certain person, though, I realized I could deal with it. I found within myself what I needed so that, should he do it again, I can cope. I still participate in the community fully, but I tend to avoid interacting with him online, and don't interact with him in person.

Now, as far as the whole judging and assessing thing, I could make judgements like "he's a horrible person" or even just taking what he did and turning into a definition of who he is, "He just can't be nice, he has to say mean things". But I can look at the situation, decide that it's generally best not to deal with him, while holding a neutral attitude rather than a judgemental attitude. He's not a bad person. He's got good qualities and not so good qualities. It's just not worth my while to deal with him, and my energy is better spent elsewhere.

In the first situation, with the musician, I posted hear about the idea of a semi-starting-over. Going back to the level of trust I'd have with someone I just met, and working from there. In this 2nd situation, I haven't done that. My trust is less. But I haven't painted him black. The lack of trust is not a constraint on how I see his current actions.

Yeah, Ellen. I agree with you. It's like the situation I had with my friend J - the one who dumped me. I have decided that it's best to keep my interactions with her to a minimum. There are times when I can't avoid her. But I won't purposely spend time with her. But I also am not saying she's a "bad" person, etc. I don't really know why she turned on me and I'll probably never know. But she must have had her reasons and I am over the judging and labeling of her. But I can choose to limit my time with her. Sometimes we just have to make assessments as to what's in our best interests.

Speaking for myself, when I see that someone is able to accept responsibility for a past mistake and that there is some indication that they are willing to own the problem and work towards a solution, I will expect them to act the way they want to be and not how they have been. In those cases, I am not going to feel so hesitant about interacting with those people again because I see that they are making the effort to be more effective. It is mainly when a person uses justification for their behavior or blames other people or circumstances that I will assume the person will not change and I will avoid interactions that I expect to go the same way they have in the past. I am very willing to accept people for who they are and where they are at in their personal journey of life and at the same time I can choose to act in ways that protect myself from them.

BG ~ In your thread with Sarah, I saw a lot of growth take place that was not evident in your thread with me. Had I not seen what I did in the other thread, I would have only had our interaction to go by and that had left us both frustrated. It was confusing for me because I was trying to answer direct questions and yet the same questions kept coming up with statements that my answers did not matter to you. I did avoid answering questions from you after that because I did not want to get myself into the same situation with you again. Once I saw the processing that went on in the other thread and could better see where you were coming from, I changed my expectation. I feel encouraged that the past will not repeat itself in that sort of situation again and that leaves me more open to giving you the benefit of the doubt again.

Denim, I try to do the same thing here. I want to move forward and I want to get along with as many people as I can. I find that's the best way to learn. So I'm working very hard to forget about past disagreements or lack of communication. You never know where you'll find that nugget of truth or the lightbulb coming on over your head from what someone else says!

Thanks for your perspective. These are really good questions to ask oneself, and a good way to sum it up. Is the judgement or label a tool or a constraint?

jr, you are so right on.

my H was saying how funny it was to watch someone talk to themself. obviously he never listens to himself when he does it.

i think you have it, jr, it is to avoid their own stuff.