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I have a question for those of you who won't get triggered by replying. Many of you experienced abuse in your homes while you were growing up. I've been told that abuse (emotional and physical) is a learned response. I also know that a lot of members of this board have successfully ended that cycle and would never be abusive to their spouse or kids.

What are the factors that influence someone who grows up with an abusive parent to perpetuate or not to perpetuate the learned behavior? If someone is reported by family, friends, and teachers to be totally different from the abusive parent, and the parents got divorced, can that judgment be trusted? I'm asking for a reason, but I don't want to go into it. I am just interested in thoughts and experiences relating to this subject. Thank you.

I don't abuse my kids because I don't see any reason they would need to be treated the way I was treated. I accepted the abuse for myself because I thought it was justified while I don't see the same justification for my own children. I also have the benefit of having taken education classes to become certified to teach so I was able to learn how to best teach children in ways that are not abusive. I would not feel good about myself as a parent if I acted in ways my father acted so I pretty much chose not to be like him because I don't like the kind of person he is nor do I want my children to experience the fear and discomfort of being near him or people like him.

I think that my working with animals as a child and as an adult has helped me focus on ways to teach rather than ways to punish. I have made the mistake of beating a dog as a way of "training" it because I was taught that was the way to teach an animal right from wrong in the absence of using logic (my father broke a dog's leg by kicking it when it peed on his shoe so I thought that housebreaking an animal involved beating the animal if it made a mistake). When I learned that animals respond better to rewards than to punishment, I figured the same could be true for people as well. I noticed that I have a strong desire to please, just like a dog, and that I was more likely to want to please someone if I were not afraid of being near them for fear of being hit. I think it is hard to teach a person or an animal when they cower near us so I want to be approachable. I mainly learned this from my foster mother because she recognized how fearful I was and she tried to help me be less afraid of people.

I do have a violent temper and I can be very dangerous if I become angry enough at someone that I want to hurt them. I hurt my husband once when I was 18 (he was in his forties) because I was drunk, which is like pouring gasoline on a fire for me. My husband was taught not to hit girls so he did not know how to defend himself from me because he did not want to hurt me back. I have made it clear to him that if I ever become violent towards him or towards my children, he is to do whatever it takes to stop me, even if that means putting a bullet in my brain. I trust that the police would do the same thing if it ever came down to my being that unsafe. I have no doubt that I could kill someone in self-defense myself and I think there are situations where there are few other options. I tend to have pretty good self-control, though, because I actually have a mechanism in my brain that gives me a "calm" feeling when I get angry. It is like an endorphin release that sedates me much like SI does so it could be that I have learned to trigger it with anger since I mainly use my anger against myself as forms of SI. I am much more likely to act out any violent tendencies on myself than I am to take it out on others.

The "cycle of violence" argument has been used against me in the past. The assumption is that since I was abused, I have a 90% chance of abusing my own children. I know that I have broken the cycle of abuse but there are those who have not learned how and they are a threat to their children and even their grandchildren. I think that because society recognizes the risk, there are many more intervention strategies to help families break the cycle and, even though that system can take action in inappropriate ways, the goal is to reduce family violence. People can learn new ways of coping with anger when they are taught how and they are willing learners.

I don't abuse my kids because I chose to not repeat the cycle. I consciously decided before I even had kids that they would not endure the abuse that I did. Why would I want to inflict pain onto another human being when I know how much it has harmed and affected me? It is a conscious choice to not raise my voice and use physical punishment as a means of disciplining my children. I'm by no means perfect and have lost my temper (under the influence of booze) on occassion and lashed out verbally or physically towards other adults, and it has left me feeling terrible about myself. I no longer drink. It doesn't feel good to me to hurt another. Many people who abuse, in particular those who are afflicted with narcissistic tendencys, get pleasure out of hurting others. This I cannot even begin to comprehend, but I guess it's what makes the difference between those who go onto re-abuse and those who don't.

Thank you, Denim. I knew that you had broken the cycle of abuse but I wasn't sure how you managed to do that. So it seems like a person can unlearn abusive behavior and sustitute it for healthy behavior even if he/she grew up in an abusive home. I admire you for being able to be such a good mother.

If one parent is kind and considerate, let's say the mother, but the father is abusive to the mother, could their son take after his mother and not have any tendencies to be abusive toward his own wife? What do you think? If the son, like you, did not want to be like his father, he would most likely be a good husband? Or could he have learned how to be abusive from his father even if he didn't appear to have those traits, just because he thinks it's normal, like you thought about dog training?

I realize there are no answers to my questions, as each person is unique and there is no way to predict how someone will treat a spouse.

Amanda: I admire you too for breaking the cycle, for choosing to be different from your parents. I also already knew that you were a good mother, and not abusive, but it helps me to see the reasons. It's obvious that a person can choose to break the cycle. Then why do people repeat the behavior if they didn't like being abused? Why would someone treat a child or spouse the way he was treated if it was so terrible? Is it something someone could do without knowing why?

Does anyone else have opinions about the questions I asked? Thanks in advance!

Sometimes people do things because they don't know any different. Yes, a person can be abusive just by watching someone they identify with abuse another person. Sons often grow up like their fathers since fathers tend to be role models for their sons more than mothers. I think that a person has to identify with the behavior and assume it is "normal" in order to treat others the same way, though. If a person believes that violence is wrong, then that person is less likely to act violently and choose non-violent behavior instead. I do believe that our nature has something to do with the type of people we are so that we can overcome poor nurturing.

Some people have more violent tendencies and can become violent just by witnessing violent behavior. If you think about historical events such as the Holocaust, there were people who treated others in ways they obviously were never treated themselves (they would not have survived the death camps). At the same time, there have been experiments where people were willing to inflict pain on others just because they were asked to do so by a person in authority. Why some people lack empathy and are willing to inflict pain on others for whatever reason reason is beyond me. There are people with sadistic tendencies who are actually stimulated by inflicting pain on others. Again, it could be a "nature" issue and not as much a "nurture" issue. Many of the sadistic killers I have read about only have feelings for their own pain so that they complain loudly when they are mistreated and yet they do not recognize their own mistreatment of others.

I think it really does depend on the person. It's like children raised with parents who smoke. Some children are completely revolted by it and never want to do it, while on the other hand some children will grow a fondness to it.

I personally think it depends on how much the person educates themselves and how much those around them support them.

I grew up in an abusive home and I have always "play hit" [you know the hit when you're flirting or joking around in the arm lightly] my boyfriend, well after a certain stressful point in my life he let me know that I began to hit him harder and more frequently. This shocked me because I hadn't even realized what I was doing, so I went back and analyzed what caused it and worked on not play hitting him anymore.

For my [future] children, I have decided I will never make them endure what I had to as a child. I know all the rules of positive reinforcement and plan to take more classes right before having children to re-educate myself on how to do it. Also, I've told my boyfriend for when we get married and have kids that he may have to be the one to deal with the children right when they do something bad because I may have to leave the room to calm down to make sure I don't do anything hurtful.

Interesting topic. I grew up in a home with 2 smokers. My sister and I hated it and we have never, ever smoked. But it could have gone the other way.

My mother used to smack me and my sister in the face when she got angry at us. We never knew when it was going to happen. To make things worse, she did it in public so the humiliation was worse. The thing is, she was a wonderful loving person, but she still smacked us. So I grew up saying I would never hit my children. When my son was a toddler, I would "smack" his hand or his thigh lightly, if he was doing something dangerous. But I didn't do it often - maybe one or twice. I never hit him when he got older. I don't believe in it. The funny thing is is that I have a really bad temper (which I learned from my mother). I slam doors and closets. My son, who is really a sweet soul, also would slam doors when he was a teenager and in a foul mood. But my H and I never hit our son. I guess it can go either way. Now as an adult, my son's temper has abated somewhat and he is pretty gentle. I'm glad things worked out that way for him. I'm trying to learn to contain my temper. It's not easy.

I think for me it unfortunately took actually hitting my oldest daughter on more than one occasion to realize that the results - both actual [my overwhelming regret] and potential [that she'd become afraid of me] - to make me totally decide to stop and overcome my learned reaction.

But interestingly (to me), I find that when my husband gets over-the-top angry and/or calling names at our kids, though, I step in - I call his attention to his behavior and separate the kids from him if necessary. This came more automatically to me even though it is not something my mom did when stepdad was on a tirade.


~ jr

At least you're breaking the cycle, jr.

As far as why someone would do something they didn't like being on the receiving end of... because they aren't seeing the other person's perspective. Self-centeredly only seeing what they get out of it, not how it feels for the other person. Not seeing that it's the same situation, from the other side. Or it could be not knowing an alternative.

Thankfully, there are also those who do know alternatives, and do choose to use them.

Thank you, ( ( ((( Bordergirl ))) ) ). It took a lot for me to say that.

Yes, I agree. I think in my case, I knew intellectually it's not only inappropriate, but also not terribly effective, to loose my cool to the point of intimidation, name-calling, or striking somebody, but... I always saw my stepdad react with a hair trigger and react strongly.

Restraint is also something many of us have to learn, I think, and if it's not there even when you're the recipient of abuse and wish to hell that there was some then, I guess one might learn to react without restraint as well...? [Apparently, stepdad was (surprise, surprise) the victim of emotional and physical child abuse, too.]


I'd like to add that it was and is important to me that my kids not be deprived of their god-given right to feel good about themselves and become the best they can be. Nobody should live in fear in their own home or have their self-esteem be stifled or taken from them, as was my experience - especially by a parent.

~ jr

I remember times when my mother would pick up her arm, in all innocence, and I would flinch. I would never want that to happen to my son! However, I still have "temper" issues. I still throw things, bang doors and closets, and yell. I have not learned yet how to properly contain my anger. Fortunately, my son doesn't live with us anymore - he's grown. But it's not good for my H to be on the receiving end of this stuff. I try to throw things and do the other "tantrumy" types of things when he's not around. But it still isn't right. I guess I'm better than I used to be, but not 100% yet. I know this isn't the ideal thing, but I find myself doing more passive/aggressive stuff - it's not wonderful but it's not yelling and screaming either.

My sister and I talk about this almost daily, we are middle aged and we still suffer from the old crap from our early years and WE HATE the fact that it still has a hold on us...But,,,, what has made me stop the cycle of neglect and abandonment was the fact that when i gave birth to my kids, I finally had someone that LOVED ME and NEEDED ME. I was so hellbent they would not hate me like I hated my parents, that I worked hard and focused on being their role model and I wanted their respect. They are sick of me asking them, now since they are grown, every time we are together, if i made any mistakes or mistreated them and please forgive me if I did. I almost obsess over the fear that i abused them with my ungodly temper and hateful mouth, but I think my deep love and need for their respect won out over the bad. I bet most of you did better than you think too. I hope you find the peace and answers you need..

P>S>. But you know what? I JUST realized, that I did not have the same understanding of how important the kids were with my oldest child, because i let his father have custody of him and i have hated myself every day since for letting him go, especially because he was gone from my life. When I got remarried a few months later and the other 2 kids came along, I had a fresh understanding and fear of losing them. That was major motivation to try and be a better mom, adding some bad guilt....

When I was a little girl, my mother used to say to me and my sister "tell me if I ever act like your grandmother." I didn't totally understand what she meant, but as I got older I sure did. My mother was trying consciously to make an effort to not make the same mistakes her mother did. It's always good when we're aware of past behavior and the desire to change it in ourselves.

The cycle of abuse is one of the many reasons I never wanted children. I am my mother's daughter and I learned well what I had been taught. I have a nasty temper and a low threshold for frustration, and my mind turns to violence far too easily. I've got a sharp tongue and a hostile mind, and I can use them without even thinking about it.

I would not WANT to hurt anyone!! I know all too well that violence and menace get only bad results. I wouldn't ever want children to suffer what I went through. But I'm not sure I could control myself. I'm not sure that I'd want to control myself...That one's hard to explain...it's about depersonalizing, dissociating (or at least disconnecting), warped perceptions...It doesn't take long for me to see children as dangerously wild animals instead of baby humans...My friends say I'm allergic.

My dad was a loving, caring generous man (everything my mom was not). I don't know why I didn't take after him more...yes I do. My mom was 24-7. My dad was a few hours in the evenings after work and on the weekends.

I still feel shame...I was about eight or so, and my mom had just blown up at me over something that I didn't understand, and I ran crying to the basement. I remember spanking the cat "just because"...that poor sweet cat, she kept purring at me until I fell asleep hugging her. I can't hurt anything. It breaks my heart to hurt anything. But sometimes I forget that I know anything else...

((((Minx)))) That's so sad about your cat.

My dad was emotionally and verbally abusive. He was a good and loving parent 95% of the time, but when he lost his temper he would rant and rave at us for literally hours. He was never physically violent... although he did drive over my mum's foot once... I don't think it was intentional, but it wouldn't have happened if he'd been calm enough to drive safely.

I've inherited his temper. It's not as extreme, and I've sought help (to my knowledge, my dad didn't seek help until I was 17, which was kinda too late for me). But I do treat my partner very unfairly when I get angry, and I don't feel ready to have kids yet. I won't until I'm 100% sure I can give them the upbringing they deserve.

(Of course, as a lesbian it's not that easy for me to have kids anyway, and I may never do it... but if I did, I'd want to be certain I wouldn't abuse them.)

It seems that a person can break the cycle, but it's not always easy, and sometimes you can't. It depends on how much you learned from each parent. I am trying to find a definitive answer, but I know that each person is different, and there is no answer. Do you think if someone is said to take after the non-abusive parent, and appears that way, and has had therapy, he could still be at risk to be abusive to his spouse or children?

Maybe.
It depends.
It's possible.
Perhaps.

It's also possible that people with NO history of family abuse could act, thoughtlessly or selfishly, in an abusive manner.

You already said that you know there is no answer. I think you know that nobody here can speak for anyone other than themselves. Is this all that different from the people who come here to ask "What is my BPD thinking" or "Why do BPDs do that"?

What is on your mind?
What is it that you want to hear us say?

and


As far as trusting what others say about the person, a big huge factor is, who it is that's saying this. How good are they are personal insight into others? How well do they know the person they are talking about? Can you believe that what they say is what they believe to be the truth? And if you know the person they are talking about, how does what they say fit with your experience of the person?

(That aspect of your question hadn't yet been addressed by anyone, and it seemed to me worth addressing.)

Minx: I probably shouldn't have started this thread because I knew I couldn't get the reassurances I wanted. Someone close to me is in a relationship with someone who had an abusive parent. I was looking for guarantees that this person won't ever be abusive. I have asked my T and an organization about this. I just thought some personal experiences might reassure me, but that was unrealistic.

Ellen: I trust those who are giving me the information. It's the uncertainty of the situation that bothers me. It's not ideal, but then, there are no guarantees in life. Like Minx said, someone without a history of abuse can be abusive too.

I don't think there's anything more I can get from this thread, but if others want to continue discussing their experiences, it's fine with me. Thank you to everyone who posted their experiences.

There are no guarantees. Especially of the "won't ever" variety.

Why are you so upset over someone else's relationship when everything is fine at the moment?
How does worrying over something that might or might not happen to someone else help or hurt you?
If twenty people here shared that it wasn't a problem for them and one person shared that they did have problems being abusive, what does that mean?
If you know that there aren't any definitive answers and you understand that there are no guarantees, why would you ask for them?

My T asks me this sort of question all the time when I get headed in that direction. It's really easy for me to take on someone else's "burden" and put more effort into solving their "problems" than I put into helping myself. Even worse when I start looking for things that don't exist...Ideas like guarantees and absolutes and assurances. It's not good thinking practice for me to want idealistic solutions because I can waste a lot of time and energy focusing on the impossible, the unattainable. I've spent a lot of years wishing life was something it isn't, and wishing hasn't been a very good coping strategy.

It seems to me, as far as feeling safe that someone won't abuse you, or someone else (whichever the situation), you can't be 100% sure, but you can be pretty much mostly sure (in some cases, where that's appropriate).

As far as in one's own relationships, feeling safe comes not from 100% total trust that someone won't hurt us, but from a combination of trusting the other person and trusting ourselves to deal with what comes up. Trusting our own ability to set and maintain boundaries.

People gave me second chances after I screwed up, and you don't even have any proof that this person has done anything wrong. Please don't blame the son for the fathers sins.