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It's also the way she is presenting things, she is inducing negativity with her words, and that is also what I meant by inducing venom. Her words reek in negativity and dissension. There is nothing friendly, agreeable, understanding, or positive about them, in this thread. You can disagree and do it in a positive way.

She is totally unwilling to listen, and I believe it's because she is unwilling to accept reality or recover. The reason why people don't recover is because they refuse to, it's as simple as that. You have to accept the system that is close to what everyone else is accepting, and then when you understand their system, you can branch off and find your own uniqueness. One has to learn the social way of conducting oneself, what to consider. Heck, there are things I am still not considering that I need to be. I found one last night.

But jody did not show me one ounce of consideration in this thread, and I honestly don't appreciate it.

I don't see where this has anything to do with what I just wrote.

Ok, I think I've backed up enough to see where you are standing.

It has nothing to do with whether jody disagrees or agrees. It has to do with the fact that jody refuses to accept the meaning of the sentence, which I clarified. She argues that the sentence means something it wasn't written to mean. Her interpretation of the sentence is incorrect, and I am the writer of the sentence, who knows what I originally meant.

If I go into a song written by John Lennon, for instance, and I interpret it for myself, do I have the right to tell him what he meant by his own sentence? He is the one who knows and who can clarify that.

Not only that, but she induced pure negativity, venom, and uncooperative action into this thread, and I truly dislike the way she acted.

If someone has thoughts that hideous, don't bother posting them. Have a little consideration for what people are reading.

Aqua, I see you in some of what you say, making judgements about what Jody is thinking, and what her motivations are. Not in everything you've said on the issue, but in some of it. Seems like you are doing something a whole lot like what she is doing.

Do you mind elaborating?

good grief, no one can play nice while i was gone.

ellen, thats cool, we can agree to disagree. we always have been able to.

jody, I have taken the time to think out my response to this.

I stand by my words, always. I mean what I post at that point in time (unless it's a mistake I made, which I do more often than I think I should), and I am accountable for what I post. That doesn't mean I never make mistakes or that I am unwilling to see a mistake. I do that every now and then. So, sometimes it won't appear to say what it means, to you. I am also very adaptable. I am not rigid or stubborn in my beliefs. If someone can convince me I am wrong, or I learn new information, my beliefs are apt to change. That's what being in recovery and growing is about. There are things I said 1,000 posts ago that I don't believe today. There are things I may've said 2 posts ago that I no longer believe, because I've done more thinking since and proven myself wrong. My thoughts must change in order to learn and grow, and sometimes that happens quickly. If that is what bothers you, then don't communicate with me. Put me on ignore until you can accept that I adapt. That doesn't mean there is no good to be gained from my words, just because there are things in them I will probably change lol. I do own all of my words, that doesn't mean in two posts, I won't have been proven wrong or have a mistake pointed out to me, which I agree that it was a mistake, by myself or by someone else, and I may change it in regards to that. That is what I am thinking at the time, that doesn't mean I am holding it true to my heart or that I can't change it. I have changed dramatically since I joined this site, and I plan to change more. This is a molding ground for the self, not a place where I speak and think rigidly and stand by bpd thoughts. In order to recover, people have to change their thoughts and a lot of times, their core beliefs.

In this particular instance, I did not change my words. I clarified the meaning of them, which I don't think you are seeing. I will change my words and beliefs if I agree with the person who is showing me they think I am wrong. I am not rigid. But I will not agree with something that at the time, I simply don't agree with. I don't present to the world a face that I am not.

I really wish that you would've presented yourself in a more positive light, and I do wish you would've asked for clarification from me before you chopped my sentence apart and gave it a meaning of your own. I am not unwilling to communicate and explain myself, but I do hope that others will show me a bit of consideration, and I don't want to put up with them or accept them if they do not.

aqua, let me make this clear as i can and be polite.

i know what you think of me. (heard it many times) i choose to not have any type of relationship with ones who dont like me even tho they dont know me at all. or anyone who judges so easily. . i should never have mentioned your post at all. that was my mistake and i regret i did it.

post all you want on the subject this thread is about. your view of me is your opinion and your entitled to it completely. i really dont care one way or the other as it doesnt affect me unless i allow it.

i feel talking to you is pointless as long as you dont like who i am, and a waste of my time better spent on working in me and not trying to convince you im not the person you say i am.

i hope this makes sense and you hear how i intend it. not venomous, not anything about you but about what i spend my time on or choose to not spend it. nor will i continue to argue my stance about your statement. i believe x, you believe y, i see no problem in it. if you feel better by posting things you "think" are wrong with me, please continue or not, as is your choice. why do you care i didnt agree with your statement anyways? i was speaking on communication, not on aqua as a person.

"""I really wish that you would've presented yourself in a more positive light""" this is what i mean. why do you care how i present myself? its my business, not yours. i live my life, you dont. this is the stuff i dont get. and i dont have time to spend worrying on it as its your stuff and not mine. i guess i present myself as i do, and i dont see it has anything to do with you at all.

Whoa! Let's get the conversation back on topic or it will be locked.

jody, this is the last I will post here, because it does need to go back on subject, as trinity mentioned. I am willing to take it to cc if you like.

no thank you re the CC.

sorry trinity. appreciate you being around and watching. it feels safe.

What I mean is the talking about what is going on in someone else's head. For example, "She inserts venom because instead of trying to grasp the meaning, she argues that it means something it wasn't ever meant to be." (The first part, but I didn't want to quote it without the rest of the sentence.) Seeing venom in her words is your reality. That doesn't mean any venom was intended.

I reply here because I think this is on topic. It's about communication. Not telling someone else what they are thinking. That tends not to work as a communication strategy.

(Yeah, I may sometimes make suggestions about what someone may be thinking or feeling. Sometimes out of empathy. Sometimes to help them in their understanding themselves, or to help them put a label to their feelings. But that's a different kind of situation. Not a "You/She did this", but a "Could this be what's going on?".)

I believe that my phrase "inserts venom" is what is confusing. I think it might imply that she meant to be negative and inconsiderate. I am not sure whether she did or not, and I think I could've used other words to describe it closer to what I meant. I was describing actions and words, but never meant to imply her intentions were to be that way. I think I had a different definition of that phrase than what people could see it to mean. (I just read it to my bf and he understood it to mean she had poor intentions, but I didn't use it to mean that, in other words, I simply didn't have the same definition of it that he did).

I do see I think what you are saying, Ellen. I did say what she thinking a few times. I do speculate on what drives others to do what they do, and some of it got in there. She exhibits classic rebellious bpd behaviors along with having major horseblinders on, and some of the speculation about what she thinks got in there. I do agree that those parts could've been left out, although those parts are my opinion.

Keep in mind that I wasn't communicating with her, but speaking of her. I don't think I would've communicated in that way if I had been writing directly to her, although I do see what you are pointing out - that improvements could be made on that end.

I thought this conversation was supposed to be about communication - not picking apart what Jody might or might not have thought. Trinity said we should get back to the topic. Why not try that? And Aqua, I don't think you have the credentials to diagnose Jody or anyone else here. Come on, let's get back on topic.

I think this discussion actually displays that if one or more people aren't open to listening to the other, no amount of words will result in communication.



(text highlighted for emphasis)

That really sounds like an accurate description of your perception of Aqua and her intention:



Sounds like you've got your preconception of Aqua's intent sorted out. Your channels to her are closed as you seem to believe hers are closed to you. You’re pointing at her with “you” don’t like me, “you” are narrow-minded/judgmental. This is your thread. You can’t control Aqua. Perhaps you could open your channels rather than focusing on the other (ie: her wording and supposed perception of you).

If you aren't open, you won't listen, and so communication cannot occur. Similarly if you believe that someone else isn't open, then you will not be open to them and communication will not occur. You can’t open another’s channels, but you can do whatever is necessary to keep your channels open.

Communication involves the participation of 2 or more people. It cannot occur in isolation.

Somtimes when we've had problems communicating with someone, we will shut down and not "hear" that person. I know it's happened with me in the past. It's difficult to get past that, but we need to try and be open-minded. Something important to remember.

I never diagnosed anyone, or tried to. Ummm, it's not so difficult to see bpd behaviors on a bpd forum lol. She has already said she had bpd.... I simply identified the actions that are associated with the illness.

I'm sure you don't want my opinion Aqua, but I think you're spending too much time on this. I'm sure there are more important issues to think about. Why not move on?

Aqua actually wrote:



That's not a diagnosis and I think you're twisting Aqua's words as a way of fueling a fire and sticking by your mate Jody - something I've witnessed from you many times before. Aqua is calling Jody on her stuff - something considered acceptable behaviour at BPDR.

How can anyone stay on topic with all his going on? Look in before looking out - ie: listen to your OWN advice first. Both of these last 2 posts of yours are quite hypocritical BG.

All good ideas to consider regarding successful communication.

Thanks Sarah. You're absolutely right. I'm bowing out of this discussion. Aqua has the right to say anything she likes.

And now you swing the other way...Which is just as untrue as the first position.

Everyone has the right to say whatever they want
BUT
I firmly believe that we all have the responsibility to LISTEN to what the other person is saying, then to THINK before we reply.

One thing my T has me do whenever I start getting upset about what somebody said - he has me repeat back the exact words. Not my paraphrasing the words. Not my interpretation of those words. The exact words that were said. A few times, he's even had me look each word up in the dictionary to refocus my mind on the base meaning of the word.

Let's take another look at something...
Am I doing this only because of my feelings?
What am I feeling? Can I put that on hold or not? Using emotionally loaded words virtually guarantees that we are (or will be) speaking from our emotions. Emotional reasoning is not reasoning at all. C'mon - we ALL know that. I don't know anyone who makes really good, wise choices when they're upset. Trying to communicate when we aren't in a balanced mind is a good way to be misunderstood. Trying to communicate when we aren't in a balanced mind is a good way to misunderstand the other.

Am I in a frame of mind to be conscious of how my words will be heard?
If not, then why speak at all? If we can't be bothered to consider who we're talking to and what we're talking about, why even open our mouths? While I cannot be responsible for what you THINK you hear, I am most definitely responsible for what comes out of my mouth.
It's not about "taking responsibility" for someone else's feelings - it's about common courtesy and respect.

Refusing to listen is not respect. It's selfish. If you don't want to listen, then stop wasting everyone's time.
Calling names is not respect. It's mean. Would you let your children talk to someone that way?
Agreeing just to get someone off my back is not respect. It's untruthful. It's manipulation. It stops any attempt at honest communication in its tracks.
Using emotionally loaded words or exaggerating is not respect. It's sensation-seeking. It's trying to make someone else (or ourselves) react to our emotional demands.
Believing that we KNOW what other people were REALLY saying is not respect. It's preposterous. We can't read minds.

Whether it's as simple as poor phrasing or as complex as our fear and paranoia run riot. We have and do and will speak to others ineffectively. We will be misunderstood and we will misunderstand others. We don't listen, we think we know what other people think, we carry on conversations in our heads long before we even speak to the other person. We get upset, we lash out, we pout, we pretend we don't care, we close our minds. We hear something we think we don't like and we don't hear another word after that. We hang on to imagined slights and drag them into our conversations for years. We refuse to listen to the very things we say to others. Any of that familiar to anyone???
The biggest thing that gets me... People say things like "I would NEVER say something like that!" Bullpuckey. We all do it. Fess up and own it.

So what can we DO about it?
Quit worrying about the other guy's communication style or lack thereof, and work on our own.
edited to finish the thought

I don't have time to reply more now, but a brief note...

When speaking about someone on a message board where they participate, a lot of the same communincations ideas apply as when speaking to the person. It's generally good, in that situation, to not say anything that you wouldn't say to the person.

well, it looks as if we all might learn a lot from this thread, even if it is a lot of arguing.

i should not have posted to aqua, or about her. i slipped in my resolve or more likely wasnt thinking. we do not get along, and it began a lot of stuff that i hope i can learn from.

i dont get along with aqua--- it has to do with her style of judging and her style of communicating, and it is too much like others in my life. i become defensive---i have learned its pointless to try to convince another im not the person they think i am.

i feel someone doesnt like me when they only tell me my faults. my mom/H does this and insists but they love me...which makes no sense to me. my issues are from all this history.

anyways...interesting thread!