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im sorry BG, about you having trouble understanding. typechat can be very hard to understand. and if asking doesnt work, well, i probably would just figure it wasnt something i was ready to learn that day. i have no problem explaining myself, you can always ask and i will not get tired of trying to get my point to make sense to you.

fwiw, i dont seem to do well confronting someone when they say mean remarks and it seems to end up im the one in the wrong. i usually just slink away somewhere and then work on ignoring it. sometimes , to my dismay, i have tried to argue my point and it always makes it worse. and again, i get in trouble for it. i am trying to learn to just be quiet about it and not reply as much as i can. sometimes i am wonderfully surprised and can have a good adult discussion with one and come to a good end. that keeps me going.

ah, ibf. let me try to answer what you asked. "if my caution hurts my work here, what can i do about it?" i have no idea. im glad you understand why i would be cautious, and how our words can affect others so much. (having reread my post, i now see what i can do about it. dont bring personal bias into it, just listen as much as i can and see what i can learn from it)

perhaps this person didnt communicate much meaning beyond "ibf is trying to get you banned". it was enough for me in the act itself. honestly, i think half the time someone here is trying to get me banned for being me,,,outspoken, honest, and at times abrasive. it doesnt bother me anymore. it only makes me feel cautious around 1/2 of the board. no big deal to me. the other 1/2 usually tell me how much i have helped them and how they appreciate me, so it evens out pretty good in the long run.

people may change their views, i certainly do. but i do try to make sure --if its one person i had a issue with--they know i have changed my views. i dont just let them go along thinking i dislike them (or their behavior ) and then expect them to know oh wait, i do like them. i tell them. because of the people around me in real, i value concrete things more than abstract or assumptions. i also try to be concious if i hurt someone, i appreciate them telling me.

about asking you, i just dont need to. for one, there is the possibility i will just hear what a shitty person i am yet again. for two, its in the past and i have more to worry on than this. for three, you can think what you want about me because i just dont have time to make sure every person has happy thoughts of me 24/7.. my main concern now is in real, my daughter and my H. its done, im not banned yet, and we dont have to get along as bosom pals to learn from each other or speak to each other. four, i dont want to drag up the dead horse it was over yet again. some never saw my view, i dont see how they couldnt, and that ended that. i can handle such things much better now since i learned a lot from it all.

"""You have a judgment you've made that IBF may not want you at BPDR because he made a statement like this some time ago. """. this seems pretty cut and dried to me. i think its a rational conclusion anyone might make.

""""why would IBF's opinion..or anyone else's opinion about this make much of a difference in what I am able to do here for my recovery?"""" now this is interesting. for one, as i said above, it really doesnt make a ton of diff in the long haul. however, it does cause me to watch myself closely and to be less than open at times. that does hinder me but its something i simply have to work with. when someone finds out others in a place of leadership wants them out, it gives pause to watch my mouth better. (if only i could do it all the time but my mouth still overloads me at times). it isnt necessarily bad,,,to have to watch myself and my behavior.

then there is the plain fact of it hurts a bit when someone doesnt like me. when someone thinks badly of me, i still have that "people pleaser" crap my mom drove into me. her "if your nice to others, they will be nice to you" which is so far from the truth. i do give weight sometimes to anothers words about all my faults and how bad it makes me as a person. i shouldnt. but thats hard to do all the time. im not that healthy. sometimes i just want to smack the shit outta someone. i dont,,,but its there. the child in me wants to yell, im really a good person, why cant you see that? type stuff.

anyways, i have learned to work around the fact of some here clash with me. i have the fear from it but i just open my own threads on something i want to work on and go from there. i havent had much time lately to work on myself or help another. maybe that will change and i will be able to go back to it again.

its a norm in the world, some just clash. i want to be adult enough to be able to talk to them, and have it not matter. i want it here to be not so personal, but focused more on inner healing and not "i dont like you and here is why" personal stuff. that just doesnt matter to me, when im trying to do work here. i can learn a lot from you, whether we get along or we dont as people. i need to remember that little lightbulb there, it just hit me.

me and you seem to have gotten to a good place and im glad. i have with some others also, so something must be going right. i just put aside the personal part and see what i can learn or share with you or someone.

this clarified a lot for me with this issue. i am seeing how to learn without bringing personal bias into it, as much as possible anyways.

thanks for helping with this! who would have thought opening our mouths and having sounds coming out could be so complicated?

I'm still having a problem understanding the idea that everytime someone says something negative about us - they really didn't but we're looking for it. How can that be? As I said, I don't look for negativity in other's words. I just pick up on it if it's there. I also pick up on positivity when it's there. It all depends on what's said. Also, it's not always WHAT is said but rather the tone in which it is said. Sometimes it seems that people say things in mean-spirited tones. They may not mean to do it, but it comes across like that. Are we supposed to come out and ask them - "are you being mean-spirited?" Won't I get in trouble for doing that? I don't know what's acceptable here and what's not. It also seems that some people can do it and others can't. If I ask a question in all honesty because I don't understand something, I don't want to be accused of stirring the pot.

Is a "may not" statement really cut and dried? Is it really cut and dried when the possibility is only one of several?

Now some general replies on the issues brought up in this thread.

On the "thoughts change". I do think the lack of non-verbals on the internet makes this hard. In two ways.

First, harder to tell the difference between "this is my thoughts/feelings right now at this moment" where one can't make assumptions about what the person felt earlier or will feel later, versus "this is my general viewpoint" where we might expect the viewpoint to last. Any non verbal clues are missing.

Like, for example, if someone is very visibly angry, you can expect there's a good change their viewpoint will change when they calm down. But we can't see those very obvious non verbal clues to anger on a messageboard like this, or in an email.

2nd, when you deal with someone face to face, you can tell a lot about where you stand with someone before any words are said. Which greatly decreases that chance of going along time wronging assuming someone is mad at you, or dislikes you, or such.

Another thought, related to the first point above, when you only partly understand the person's viewpoint, it's easy to misjudge how lasting that viewpoint will tend to be.



I'm thinking this varies with the situation.

An example from my life. This one guy I know in person and on a message board. He said things about me on the messageboard that both just weren't true and that in my opinion were very insulting. At the time, I considered him a friend. But his behavior for me was unacceptable from a friend. I tried talking with him about it. He wouldn't consider my viewpoint about myself in relation to the things he'd said. After all of it, the impression I was left with was that he didn't mean these things to be insulting. But he also is no longer my friend.

And, in this case, it wasn't a case of I was looking for it. This was a case of he really did say something not nice, I would say. However, not nice in my opinion. That doesn't doesn't mean he saw the remarks as not-nice.

Hypothetical example, just to help illustrate the situation. I say "M is bothersome". I don't mean anything bad by it. A playful remark. But M doesn't see herself as bothersome, and furthermore by her values it's very wrong to be bothersome. So, what I said really is, to her, not nice. But I meant nothing unkind. It's not for me "not nice".

Except, in this case with this guy, I was M. And this was a repetitive thing. My strategy was to talk things out by email. When that didn't work, to confront him on the board. And, in the end, to choose to no longer consider him a friend. It's a boundary issue. It's not that what he did was inherently wrong. It's not that he meant anything bad. It's simply that it was unacceptable to me.


Humor... well, I'm running out of time, and I don't fully remember what I was gonna say, so I'll come back to this. If, that is, I remember what I was gonna say.

Hah, IBF, I read the first 5 paragraphs of this post, then read the rest expecting it to be mean-spirited and finding what I was looking for. But then I read the post another two times and changed my mind.



I don't think anyone here is saying that no-one ever says mean things on purpose. It's more like "if we're looking for it, we'll probably find it whether it's there or not". It's quite possible that the negativity you find is real. It's also possible that you heard the words differently from how they were meant even if you weren't looking for negativity.


It depends a lot on how you do it, and like so many other things it's a skill that takes practice and plenty of mistakes to learn. There's a lot of room here for learning. Maybe you'd have a better time here if you didn't think of it so much in terms of "getting in trouble". As I see it, you need to go *really* far across the line to "get in trouble".

see, stoneglow, i see it very diff. i dont have to even cross a line to have someone want me banned. perhaps we should discuss this in private or CC since it isnt really on topic. and since it seems others feel the way i do. how we get in trouble easily without really knowing what we did (we are never told and i think thats a glaring omission on the part of the leaders) and others can post what they please and no one says a word. (crap, we are back to this shit again, arent we?) guess its not solved. i will be glad to discuss it with you. """"As I see it, you need to go *really* far across the line to "get in trouble".""" some of us dont..lol. some of us can just respond when we get enough and get in trouble. as i see it* of course. i truly dont see a thing i did to get banned, yet apparently i was fighting for my life in there somewhere. i was very surprised. plus i hate the idea of crap going on about me, or anyone, and we dont know it. it just reeks, to me. we should be told when we are being discussed and we should be told why. imho*

i wont be discussing concerning the direct ibf/me issue tho. im too scared and dont want to hear all my faults. ok? and its past, i only wish to discuss it in general terms not specific ones about me. at least for now.

BG, others are/can be negative. we dont have to look for it. it means (i think) that we may assume something is negative when it isnt. not that it isnt negative when it is. make sense? means we just need to think deeply on something before we automatically assume.

i didnt find ibf post to me (the "this page" link) mean at all. i found it very respectful and honest. i appreciated it.

ellen, would you further explain this? """Is a "may not" statement really cut and dried? Is it really cut and dried when the possibility is only one of several""" what several possibilities do you mean?

BG, i guess one could ask "are you being mean spirited?" i think you wont get too far as most wont admit they are. i would think a "I" statement would be better. "i feel...when you....because" thing. just my opinion. i mean, do you think someone is gonna say hell yes im being shitty! lol. they will defend and have their own reasons they can make mean remarks. and probably make more cause you asked.

shit, this post scares me to post.

Jody, honestly, I meant that for you to think about. I don't want to give you the answers. And I didn't even have any particular alternatives in mind. I probably should have just quoted the "may" since the "not" really goes with what follows.

The point is, if something MAY be true (as in this example) then it's also possible it's not true.

true, but in this case i trusted this person who told me and he said they were right, that he had said it.

in most cases, i would have made sure as i dont tend to believe a 3rd hand account or remark.

as long as we keep this as a general subject, im ok with it. i wont let it become a ibf thing tho....in respect to him, and in respect to i dont want to rehash old stuff. (i know you are doing this and im very grateful)

this needs another thread, probably, im not sure. i dont like the idea of a group discussing things behind someones back and them not being notified about it. however, i dont want to start some shit either and get in trouble. argh. (i feel im always in trouble when i speak up) i just guess i will have to accept this is how it works, and if i dont like it, it really doesnt matter. i dont think it fosters trust on the board tho, for some of us who have trust issues. i guess it is communication, after all.

sure, there were several possibilities. one, this person was just blowing smoke and it didnt happen. (since proven not to be the case). umm, two, it was said and done, and that is now what i base this on. if you note, i didnt bring it up until i pretty much knew it was true. i filed it away in case, to keep and to be cautious. i think it was a nice heads up told to me and i appreciated that someone finally did it. i think maybe this has changed in the leadership, i hope so. but i dont really care as i just have too much else to worry on right now. another reason i didnt bring it up at the time, i couldnt see how it would be helpful. i am using it now as a example for good communication, and not as a personal "thing". make sense?

yeah, i follow your reasoning, ellen.

Jody, if you quote something, and say "this", I and other readers will assume you are referring to the statement you quoted. That's what I was referring to. But now you are saying "but in this case". As far as what I posted to you, "this case" was the sentence you quoted and commented on. Nothing else.

P.S. Jody, I don't see how anything else you said even relates to what I said. Yet my post is the only one after your previous post. Are you replying to someone else's post, something you didn't cover in your previous post?

Hi Jody, you're welcome to CC or PM me if you'd like to talk outside the thread.

hey ellen, i was pretty much just adding thoughts so the subject wasnt misunderstood. another control thing i think i have of trying to stop something from happening "in case" it does. argh @ me. sorry.

i do see how adding a few clarifying words would have helped and how i didnt do it at the time. makes a big diff.

thanks for helping me see this ellen. every little bit helps me learn to be clearer.

ty stoneglow. give me a day or 2 as i have the grandkids tonite till monday night or tuesday. my daughter has her assessment and such with a new pdr tomorrow in dfw/ . i would like to discuss this and make sure i have time to put into it.

Suzie: That's an interesting sweater. Where did you get it?

Sally: [thinking to herself] She said 'interesting' which must mean she thinks it's atrocious. The way she said it just drips with sarcasm and nastiness.

Sally: F' you, bitch!

Suzie: Uhm, where'd that come from? I just wanted to know where you got the sweater because my aunt likes clothing like that.

Sometimes it's there but it's not on both sides of the fence.

""""I'm still having a problem understanding the idea that everytime someone says something negative about us - they really didn't but we're looking for it"""

BG, i think your looking at this too black and white. many times someone will say something shitty and its pretty obvious its shitty.

the thing is how we respond to it.

I understand. But what if they use nasty words or phrases? Where it's quite obvious? Then what do you do? I've seen it happen here and no one says anything. I thought we have to treat others with respect here. I don't always see that happen, yet no one says anything.

Bordergirl, did you see the replies from me and from Stoneglow in this subject earlier in this thread. I think my reply to you fits well with your question here.

I think we do our best to call people on their nastiness. Will we catch everything? No... unless YOU help. You see the button with the exclamation point (!) ? That button sends an email to the SCLs. We'll take a look at that post. And we go from there.