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i was thinking on the CC me and amanda had and notice how diff we all are on this.

not good or bad, just is. its more about ourselves than another, and what we do with it. like, some here i communicate well with and some i dont.

i notice the ones i dont communicate well with usually think i have some hidden agenda, when i dont. but then i think they do also...lol...whether they do or not.

i do need to work on being more clear because i tend to post as i talk and think. with the shortcuts in my brain already. and others go wtf is she talking about? or if they dont know how i mean something, they put their own spin on it (of course--we all do).

so while we each hear from our own point of view, we still must try to be as clear as possible on what we are meaning or thinking. and that is hard!

views? ideas? thoughts?

I think our own spin is most obvious when someone posts a topic and the responses received run a gamut- perhaps one person focuses on the dynamic of those being written about; another may key in on an issues; another on a fear or strength of the poster; another is sympathetic or empathetic; another wants to fix it.

That is an obvious show of the poster perhaps not being clear (ie what are they looking for) or on how those responding are bringing their own stuff into it. (not always so clear as what I spoke of above.)

I suppose realy when people go to CC, both parties should work on the communication dynamic as much as on the topic- -rephrasing what has been said; asking for clarity (perhaps even If you think you are understanding it perfectly); etc.

It is great to see you pick up on the points you have. I hope it has brought you a further understanding of that CC and helps you resolve any mis-communications !

hey smiling, thanks for sharing. yes, that one word i used and how amanda heard it began a deeper thing for me.

and it is a across the gamut truth of all of our everyday lives. it helps us to focus on others, yet not own their responses or take them personally.

it really has several layers to it and shows me places i need to work harder on. communication really has so many levels it passes thru, and many places it all can go wrong. leaving us at times to scratch our heads and say what?

this stuff i need to really work on, and catch myself when i do it, when i put my spin automatically on anothers words...how i respond...how i can improve myself in many ways.

im my case, it goes back to my mom and my H, as so much seems to do. what i learned from them, and how dysfunctional my behavior is. and it takes me concious work to change this. every day.

This is a good post Jody. I find that often here I will not understand what someone is trying to say. I ask for clarification and sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't. When there is no clarification the dialogue goes awry, because I sometimes can't make sense of what the person is trying to tell me. I find it frustrating, but that's what happens when you're not face-to-face.

But, on the other hand, I had that happen today in "real life." I was talking to two women and trying to share something. One of the women either mis-heard what I said or didn't understand what I was trying to say. I kept telling her in as plain language as I could, but she finally walked away. Again, I was frustrated. I try to talk clearly and plainly, trying to get my message across. Don't know what happened.

I do think also that people hear your words through their own filter. I try to clarify but it doesn't always work.

I know for me, I need to hear things in plain language - black-and-white. I can't deal with concepts that I can't wrap my head around. Usually those posts I skip over because they make no sense to me.

Interesting topic, yes, Jody.

i also need things not in abstracts. that just doesnt tell me a thing. i will skip those posts also.

sometimes when 2 people just cant understand the other, its best to just stop awhile and maybe try later. some just wont hear what others say, no matter what. it isnt always us...lol.

I often find that people think they are asking for clarification, when in fact they are not but rather repeating what they have already said or not really stating what they are not clear about. - If someone responds with 'I dont see that' .. which 'that' are they referring to - the same one I am talking about in my response or what they are focused on (which can be 2 totally different things)

I also have had people say "well that's how it is" which means nothing really.. .it doesnt explain what is unable to change or set in stone.

I have had others say 'yes I understand" (and even caught myself using this term lately) when in actuality I understand what it means to me or my similiar experience. .which may not at all be what it means for the other person.

So my point here - and what I too am guilty of - is when we 'think we are explaining' we won't ever know if that is true if we dont state the subject and our thought clearly.. speaking in generalities or 'this or that' doesn't clarify a thing, nor does 'what I meant was' if it isnt followed by 'when I said x' is that 'x means to me ____ '.

Another frustration for me is when someone wants an explaination of every word - since that only complicates things and gets us off topic. (this type of behavior reminds me of someone doing math and taking it down to the most common denominator.. I dont think that is helpful if you arent talking quantum physics.)

You are not alone I find myself doing this a lot. I am working on thinking before I say things so I do not hurt someone that I really care about. I am a working progress.

Communication will fail, regardless, if two people are not on the same page, especially if one hasn't ever been on that page and really can't fathom being on that page. An example would be trying to explain algebra to a two year old. I could write a book, but if that person hasn't grown to that point, they won't get it. Same with someone writing to me (and that mostly happened for a long time after I first joined the site). I didn't "get" what some of the others here were talking about, but I also knew I didn't get it. I think it's important when you don't get it, to make a goal for yourself to do what it takes to get it.

As far as clarifying a word, it really depends on the situation and what that word is. If the definition of a word is a deal-breaker in a relationship (which some are), then I would rather it be pointed out to me.

Sure, some things here can be frustrating, it's important to be able to come here and not become frustrated. And that's up to you to make that happen, whether it be putting someone on ignore or growing to the point where it is no longer frustrating.

I think the only way you can "get" what someone is saying is if they say it in language you can understand. There's a difference between understanding the concept of what someone means and agreeing or disagreeing with them. If I can't understand what someone is trying to say, I can't agree or disagree. I have to at least know what they mean in the first place. You can certainly not agree with someone, but you have to know what they're saying.

I may not fully understand what you're saying here, but I wholeheartedly disagree with what I think I'm seeing. It sounds like you're saying that your lack of understanding is the other person's responsibility. That can be true in the case of a teacher and a student when the teacher tries to explain algebra to someone who cannot add or subtract. Understanding ain't gonna happen. Otherwise, we share responsibility for understanding and you can make it happen no matter how the other person presents it. Think about how many times each day that people who don't speak the same language at all find a way to understand each other fully.

Watch what your T does next time you try to explain some complex thought pattern that you have a lot of emotional energy about. If he follows your reasoning, if he fails to understand it the first time, he can just say something like "you can't explain this in a way I understand so I'm not going to talk about this with you." Would that be acceptable to you?

Watch him and listen closely. Likely he's going to paraphrase your statements to check to see if he understands your meaning. He probably will suspend making judgments about your thoughts until you agree he understands them fully. He'll keep doing that until you agree that he understands what you've said. He will also likely check to see what you're feeling about it.. paraphrase or describe what he thinks your feelings are until you say something like.. "yes, that's it."

Not only is this an effective way to get to understanding something you might not have understood at first, but it's an extremely validating way to communicate and show that we care enough to try to understand what the other is saying and feeling. It normally feels pretty good to be on the receiving end of an effort to understand like this.

I can't think of any reason we could not do the very same thing in exchanges here. (I've tried it here successfully quite a few times,) But we don't. We interpret, judge and react and if we don't get it, we often blame it on the other person's communication.

Understanding just doesn't happen that way. Ever. And it's always our choice. We can either make understanding happen, or we can make the choice to let it fail.

True, in this case, if I read something I can't understand here, it is my responsibility to figure it out. It's not their responsibility to go backward so I can understand it, it's my job to go forward. No one here has the responsibility to teach me anything, it's my responsibility to do what it takes to learn.

I agree with you IBF. I have in the past tried to get clarification but it hasn't always worked. The other people sometimes get frustrated with me. So I tend to give up. If I knew the right way to go about it maybe that would help. But I will keep asking for clarification and see how it goes. I can only try, right? Maybe I will try paraphrasing and see how that works. Thanks - that's a good idea!

heya ok woman, you too? cool....

i totally disagree with aqua, and i dont think i will address any of that. lets say we each have our own opinions --so be it.

""""Communication will fail, regardless, if two people are not on the same page""" so not true, as no one can ever be on the same exact page as another.

anyways.....i guess i could show the points i dont agree with but im not sure there would be a point to use that much of my time in it. i have no desire to simply argue. my views are mine, yours are yours. your very entitled to yours.

thanks for sharing, smiling, good points. it just is not easy for me, and i like the idea ibf had. we all need to do that more, esp me. since i wasnt ever taught it, im having to teach myself that the world is just not out to get me. and to not be so defensive.


((BG))

Jody, is there some black and white thinking there?

Seems to me, just because two people are never on the exact same page does not mean that communication is always possible no matter how far apart they are. I can see disagreeing somewhat with what she says, as she words it. But totally disagreeing? I can't see how one can "totally" disagree with her without living in some pollyanna fantasy world. Which I know you aren't. Which is why I think you are seeing what she says in a black and white way rather than really hearing her point.

True, if you take a few words out of a lot of sentences, you can disagree with them. The paragraph is meant to be read as one, and not dissected. Although I agree it could've been worded better, I took the time to explain what I meant.

True that communication is always possible in some form. I could say "outside" to my former puppy, and he would go running for the door. My point was that I will fail if I try to teach him algebra.

And my only point was: If I am going to be on a football forum, I am going to try to get up-to-spec with everyone else on the matters of football. If they write something, I am going to put forth my best effort to try to understand what they are getting at, and that might take me awhile. But I am going to think it's my responsibility to do so, and I am not going to think they want to read my posts until I have something to add, and that means I will be able to understand their concepts and their words. And then I will believe they will want to hear from me, but I will consider that they don't until then. I will have the dictionary and the books they read, and if I don't understand something, I will read until I do. That's taking responsibility for myself and my own self-worth, and taking into consideration what they want to read. I don't want to be a burden by lagging behind. And that's all about personal accountability. I'm responsible for being worthy to others and to myself.

And I think that's the point I also wanted to make.

Also, that in this scenario, what it takes to communicate is willingness and effort. If people aren't willing to make the effort to understand, then I am going to be unable to communicate with them. Communication can happen, but it will take hard work, and I've found that there are a handful of people here who just aren't willing to do the work. Also, some just won't throw in the towel on the fact that the bpd way is right. They would rather fight against use of the tools than fight against the bpd way. In other words, they are pro-bpd. lol. And I can understand that, I was too for a long time, and I still am sometimes. I still have problems trusting that another way will work, even though I have seen success. Sometimes I still feel as if someone is going to come up from behind me and pull the rug out from under me.

ellen, here is what i totally disagree with. the statement, """" Communication will fail, regardless, if two people are not on the same page"""". endquote/

that is black and white thinking. communication will not fail, regardless, if 2 people are not on the same page. that is failure thinking, failure projecting in assumptions. and yes i totally disagree with that.

communication is learning how to communication when (usually, seldom are 2 people on the same page all the time) you ARE on different pages.

it is learning to convey your own clear meanings or desires and knowing when not to own anothers view or how they may hear it.

communication will not fail, regardless, if 2 people arent on the same page. if so, whats the point in trying? whats the point of a board? whats the point in speaking to another?

nope, i stand by this one. i am in the gray area. sorry, ellen.

""""True that communication is always possible in some form"""".

yep, that is what i said.

jody, I'm just wondering if you failed to notice this sentence.

i read it all. its a cop out, in my opinion.

you change your wording every time someone disagrees with you. i find that hard to do much with in terms of talking to you. its like talking to the wind, to me.

thus, i stand by what i said. and your original words, instead of owning them, you just changed them. this is a pattern with you, in my view. i find it too hard to try to pin you down on things to discuss your true beliefs.

I don't need this kind of negativity. If you feel that way, keep it to yourself, please. The board doesn't need that, and it's selfish to insert your venom here.

Also, if I thought jody was willing to listen and to create an understanding, I would be willing to discuss things with her. I have seen other people try, and I tried a time or two a while back (when I really wasn't equipped), and I have seen Ash and some other long-timers be met with dissent and opposition instead of cooperation and understanding. If jody was willing, I would be too, but I am not willing to throw my time and energies into a black hole by arguing with her (when she is unreasonable and determined to remain so), because I think that time and time again she has proven she is hell-bent to argue and cause chaos as opposed to being cooperative and understanding. It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to be determined to stick with an unreasonable thought regardless of all evidence to the contrary, or after someone has explained their meaning which does not match what she is making it out to be. The person writing it knows what they meant, and you can't change that into what you think it means.

Is it her thinking that's black and white, or is it your interpretation that's black and white?

I've read that statement more than once, in context. And I stand by what I said to you above.

Why is it not okay to stick with an unreasonable thought? We all have the right to think what we want. We may not be able to get someone else to agree with our unreasonable thoughts, but we have the right to have them. And an unreasonable thought is subjective. What I think is an unreasonable thought - you might think is reasonable, and vice versa.

I also think we don't always have to agree with what we all say here. I read a lot that I agree with, and a lot I don't agree with. I may not say so because I don't want to get into it, but you can't fault someone for having a different opinion. Who's to say who is right and who is wrong? If we can't state our opinions here, something is not right. I didn't see venom here - I just saw someone having a difference of opinion. I've seen you have a difference of opinion Aqua. No one ever said it was venom. I'm not standing up for anyone in particular - I'm just saying that it's stimulating to have a back-and-forth discussion and get differing ideas. I think that's a sign of growth, not negativity.

Because if someone explains what they meant by something, yet the person still believes it meant something it did not mean, then they are simply fighting against reality. It's not ok FOR them and their own state of mental health. Sure, they can believe what they want, but it isn't healthy, and I thought we were all here to achieve mental health.....

Are you fighting TO have unreasonable thought? Do you think it's ok TO have unreasonable thought? Because if you do, I don't understand why you are here, on a bpd recovery forum, considering that this forum is for people to untwist their thoughts.

I can run amuck all over these forums telling people the sky is green and then say I have a right to it, but that will never make it so, nor will I be considerate of the other or my own state of mental health by doing so. I'll just be shaking up the karmic balance, and somewhere down the road, I'll have to face the consequences for that.

Just because I have a right to do things doesn't mean it would be the right thing for me or for the other, to do them.

She inserts venom because instead of trying to grasp the meaning, she argues that it means something it wasn't ever meant to be. That's uncooperative and it doesn't need to be here. To ask someone to clarify a meaning is acceptable, and in that instance, I can understand that. It could've been done better, I agree and did agree (which was owning my own words, I do own them and stand by them, always), but jody is so unforgiving, and refuses to see what I do mean by the sentence. I also see that Ellen got what I was trying to say. Someone who has problems grasping ideas could have problems with that. But one doesn't assume it was black-and-white thinking, or disagree, without clarifying what the person meant, first. And, one doesn't take a few words out of a sentence and disagree with them. That is not giving the sentence the chance to convey it's full meaning, in this scenario.

jody tries to think of reasons not to accept what people are saying, and if that includes taking sentences out of context in order to maintain her own view of reality or creating dissent where there doesn't need to be any, then that is what she does.

I don't know Aqua. I think everyone has the right to think what they want. We are not here to say what is acceptable thinking or not. I'm not a doctor or a psychologist. I would never tell anyone what they can or cannot think. And I also think - this is just my opinion - that Jody was saying her opinion, which she has a right to. You're just putting your interpretation on what she said. You have that right. So it's all subjective, as I said. No one has the right to tell me what to think. But that's my opinion. You're entitled to yours.