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Jody, I'm glad you see that you become defensive and that it gets in the way of effective communication. This is a tremendously important first step. I relate because I've wrecked two marriages to wonderful people doing the very same thing. I may have done it in a different way, usually with razor sharp sarcasm that cut deep but caused very little blood loss on the surface. It is soooooooo BPD to react defensively this way.

The question now, however, is what are we going to do about changing our behavior to eliminate this problem and replace it with more effective and healthy responses?

My first thought still tends toward judging the other party and creating a very sarcastic stab in reply. You seem to go on the attack instantly with some people here, and you say it's defensive. I understand and appreciate that. But an attack is an attack, no matter how polite or nasty.

As to your points above, why is it necessary for you to prove to them you are something other than what you think they think you are? You (we) don't KNOW what they think of you. We can only guess. Usually, as with most Beepers, we're mistaken as all get out. And when it comes to discussing an idea, what does it matter?

If understanding and learning is our objective, then we can work to understand what the other is saying until we understand it. We just need to know what the meaning IS. We don't need to judge it then or later if we don't want to.

If being "right" and getting agreement is our objective, then we've got much bigger hurdles to climb. But getting agreement and being right are not required for understanding, are they?

At the same time, proving someone else is "wrong" or disagreeable has little to do with understanding. But it happens here every day and I don't know why. It's like there's a fine line between sharing an opposing or alternate viewpoint for the sake of learning and recovery and trying to prove we're right and the other person is wrong. And many of us seem to get our stinky toes across that line more often than we need to.

Perhaps our first step is to become very clear within ourselves about what our purpose is in posting before we put our hands on the keyboard.

If it's about being "right" or proving someone else is "wrong" ... why bother? If it's about understanding and learning, how can we go about doing that without forcing the question of who's right and who's wrong? We can always decide that for ourselves later. Understanding, however, requires work and cooperation among all involved. It will not happen without these.

It seems to me that learning involves asking a lot more than telling. If we convince ourselves we're trying to learn and find our fingers doing more telling than asking, like right now, then it's time to be very careful with our fingers.

ibf, i been thinking on this a lot. i got interrupted while ago with kids so im back now to further go with this.

because this type of communication reminds me of my mom, and my H, i thought deeper on what it means TO ME. to me , it means im not liked, more even, that im not WORTH being liked.

i was always told, "oh, but i love you". righttt. however, all i get/got was critical statements. "this is wrong, you are this, you are that and its all wrong". in my own view, when we love or like someone, somewhere down the road we tell them good things also. i also learned this in counseling and in parenting. for every critical thing said, say 5 positives or word the critical as a more positive. some here, some in real, always do this with me. i try hard to do it in return with people. i know they find worth in me, and thus im ok around them.

but some, in real and here, only say the bad stuff. like my mom, like my H, (which always colors all of us in life and how we hear things--it comes from somewhere) never have a good thing to say. they say nothing until they come up with a list of what they see wrong.

and that---i dont work well with. to me, had they liked me, they would not constantly and consistently only tell me the bad things i do wrong.

thus,..i am defensive. i am feeling total lack of worth, as if i have no good things about me. only bad things in their eyes.

also, unfortunately, i , by now, usually dont listen. its like, no matter what i do, "they" will never see it and tell me at least a piece of me is good. thus whats the point in constantly trying to be who they want? with constant criticism and no positive reinforcement, people in general, i think, will sit down and quit trying. it is the carrot, the compliments or noticing something good that keeps us going.

in the story of "a boy called IT" it became clear when he did have some good parents, how to parent him. discipline was not gonna work, he had endured far worse than they could dream up. and he acted out many years because of this. its like, beating wont help when one beats someone often. they become able to endure and not care.

with kids, they teach us (this course i took was 6 months long, btw) to FIND something your kids are doing and tell them how nice it is, how you appreciate it, etc. i do this. every day. "oh, you picked up your trash--how thoughtful!". etc. everyone does good things at least sometimes.

with aqua, since she is who posted and i began it, she has never once said a thing nice to me. in years. she usually doesnt talk to me at all except to tell me her list of what a crummy way i act or talk. and that,,i dunno, ibf, it goes back to my other past, and to the idea of if all one has to say is negative things, then why bother? indeed, why think a person who hears only bad shit will even listen? i already know what aqua thinks of me. i dont need it repeated. now until "i" stop my stuff, she wants me banned from the board. well and good, but i broke no rules and i dont post negative all the time at all. indeed, seldom, i think. (i hesitate on this as i know you also want me banned...sorta talking to the fox in the henhouse as it were)

and anyone who spends a lot of time addressing what they think is wrong with another, seems to be saying im fine, its all you who arent. they also say they know more than me and again, that brings up a defensiveness in me.

so this is where my post in return came from. i cant believe i even opened the door for this. i was so wrong. what was i thinking? i wasnt, plain and simple. now im paying for it.

there are ways and then there are ways. "jody, you ARE this and that.". or..."jody, i hear this from you. could it be you feel x and y?" communication.

obviously, some of my personality rubs some wrong. no surprise to me, i usually rub 98% of people wrong. but no one died and left them in charge of fixing me. and the ones who do tell me when i mess up, in a good way, a productive way, i respond extremely well to them and work my ass off at it. ask em.

the preaching style, i just cant handle. people who talk for others, "most of the board" or "most people" i dont respond well to. people who point fingers with no helpful ideas, i dont respond well with.

i really appreciated your sharing. im the sarcastic type also. its a big defense. it meant a lot you chose to share and let me see some of who ibf really is.

oh, i know i go on the attack. im fighting for my worth. doesnt really make sense. but in my mind, this list hurts so much to keep hearing. i never understand the WHY anyone does that. if i have no good points that they see, then just stay away from me. why hang around someone so obviously bad? it becomes their mission to make jody see how shitty she is.

here is where someone invariably pops up and says "i never said i didnt like you. i never said you were bad". not in those words, no. but to list the bad stuff with never any good things pretty much comes across as i have no good points, only bad. thus, a bad person has only bad points. a good person would have at least one good point. in my opinion*. and if someone doesnt like my traits, then why hang around me? i hang with someone cause i like them as a person. (strangely enough, some out there do like me!) we all have good and bad, i just dont pay much attention to the bad unless they ask me my view. then i tell them, i hear you doing this but have you thought of doing that? it works pretty good. i DONT say well your a stupid person.

maybe i dont because i have heard it so often and so long, i know it wont work.

so that is why a few here and in real, i just dont play well with. i feel their dislike of me in their words, and i become defensive and pretty much prove to them i am a crappy person and dare them to try to fix it. because they dont seem to tell me anything nice, ever, then i can prove im a bitch even more.

quite complicated. sorry i went on so long. i valued your post to me. thank you again.

Thank you, Jody. That's quite a thoughtful and thorough and sincere reply. I'm just back from work and it's past 3:30 AM, I can't keep my eyes open, so I"m gonna go to bed instead of trying to craft a constructive reply right now. I'll be back to this as soon as I have a bit of time and energy.

I have to learn what is my stuff and what is other's stuff. I am not a Rescuer and should not act like one. Something I learned this morning and have to incorporate. Thanks for allowing me to see this.

I've caught up reading the thread, and I don't really have anything to add to what's been said, my I want to say I really like Minx's post on page 2 of this thread. It's a good post on the general topic.

ty ibf, i dont know why i slipped and said i had a diff view of the statement aqua made. just lost my mind a min, i guess. i will try harder to not do it again.

btw, my post was not meant as a excuse. just the way i feel and behave sometimes. a explanation. it is something i work on all the time and feel bad when i slip. i need to go back on my BuSpar, it helps my brain work better.

i am interested in your views...

i also guess i think there cant be effective communication with some people. (note..effective) i should stay away and not try. some just clash due to certain things. and dumb fuck i am, i fell right for it yet again. i guess i may never get completely past doing that at times. i think i have my restraints back tight again, hopefully.

""""Quit worrying about the other guy's communication style or lack thereof, and work on our own.""" this i sure agree with. i need work on it.

I would say it to her, just not in the same way as I did when speaking of her, but I did agree that some of it didn't need to be said.

*and that includes some of the speculation. I'm not 100% sure on that stuff, which is why I wouldn't post it. These are just thoughts I have at times, when I am trying to learn more about the illness, what drives it, and putting myself in other people's shoes.

There is some great work and learning going on in this thread. Congrats to ALL. more after work.

My ex loved to do this. It's a technique used much by apd's... they thrive on twisting and turning words to create new meanings and proving people to be "wrong", especially when they want something they have. They will sit there like a rabid dog just waiting for a person to even come close to a slip-up, so they can work their "magic", which in a rational person's mind, equals a crock of bs. I went to the university of getting screwed over lol. They would rather try to knock the person back down or steal what they have than try to achieve what they've got. But they do it knowing what they are doing and in all sincerity. I used to do the same thing, but mine was fueled by anger and jealousy that the other person was happier and was receiving more rewards than I was. I thought it was a big competition, and anything I could do to have that person fall to my level was acceptable - Dirty fighting tactics and all. The difference was, I wasn't aware of what I was doing, and didn't have an example of opposite actions to compare it to. He knew exactly what he was doing.

In my circles, it was pretend to be good, but be bad. The words and actions are proper when needed to gain something the self wants (such as attention, kudos, sex, etc.), but they are disingenuous, as in, there is no attempt to do the right thing when the need arises to want to rip someone a new asshole (because it feels good to see someone fall to their level) or get a need met. This is the norm in a lot of personality-disordered circles. It's a big competition for who can get the most hos or who can get the thickest gold chain, or the most kudos based on as little actual work as possible and a whole lot of hype, and there are a few rules, but not many.

It's the opposite of cooperation and social behavior.

I feel that in good communication you don't knock other people down or say nasty things about them. I can't stand when people do that. You may not agree with someone, but you don't have to be mean. I've seen that happen a lot and it really bothers me. Just because I have one opinion and someone has another, doesn't call for attacking the other party. Plus when that happens, you're more likely to shut down and not hear what the other person is saying. You're closing doors, not keeping them open.

well, thats the thing. there is "good" communication, effective communication, then there is communication of the negative sort, and the kind no one has a clue what the other means.

it can be all kinds.

what i want to work on is the positive kind. where even if the person doesnt agree, they still come away feeling heard and respected. mean words, negative phrases have no place in that.

i think i cant stand it because it reminds me of my mom and my H. the need to tell another what a crummy person they are, rather than a respectful way to handle their actions. im curious, BG, where does your dislike come from? some people can just brush it off, and that is how i want to be. i have, unfortunately, learned to close my door when it happens, and thats not a good thing. i need to be able to hear it without owning it. but i revert back a lot and i dont like that in myself.

its the same with inconsistency, for the same reasons. its not safe to me, feels like im walking a fine line. i mean, how do you believe someone who says either 1,. your a bad person or 2 your a good person when they can say both? i dont think one can.

I've never had the inconsistent kind - where they say you're good and then say you're bad. At least not that I remember. But it does bother me when you try to get your point across but you can't because the other person says not-nice-things. I do a lot of political advocacy and see it a lot there. You try to discuss things but they judge everything you say and can't get past that. Instead of hearing what you're saying, they're judging and finger-pointing. In an unkind way. It's unproductive. You can never get your point across because they're finger-pointing. I don't like mean-spirited people and I run across that occasionally. It's okay to disagree but it's not nice to be mean-spirited.

i find, in my H for example, his meaness is simply his way of avoiding any communication. by trying to change the subject, and getting me to defend or argue, he has learned he can stop the original communication and its reason. plain and simple, he can control what he doesnt want happening.

i had to learn to not give him attention for doing this. going back to the original question i would have doesnt work. so i just dont keep talking to him. i just say...uh huh and move on. he is the only person i know who totally refuses to communicate in any meaningful way. even my T didnt believe it till she knew him. he literally wont talk about something unless he brings it up and he wants to. a bit one sided, ya think? makes a marriage impossible. makes any relationship impossible.

one can easily be sucked in to the "game" and be sidetracked into playing their game with it.

sometimes its also to get the spotlight off them and say well, so and so did THIS!" he does that a ton. i tried to explain, 2 wrongs dont make a right, he wont get it.

its a way to change the subject , for whatever the persons reason is.

your very lucky to not have the inconsistent kind. it will--my T said it was crazy making. and it is. its the logic of i like you but here is all i find wrong with you. or....its a form again, of control. they are in control of the circumstances. never you.

its when someone says they love you, which is why they need to beat you within a inch of your life. sound familiar? inconsistent words and behavior. drives me fucking crazy. i hate it.

while ago, my H wasnt gonna let the dog back in EVER because it killed a bird (MY fault it found the bird, of course) and wouldnt mind him. 2 hours later, the dog is in the house.

inconsistent. control. crap, but thats my simple description..lol.

the people you talk about in your post (politics), i feel sad for them. they miss most of life doing that.

I learned when talking to people about issues - you keep repeating your position. Don't waver. If they try to get you to change your position or get into an argument, just keep repeating what you want to say. Don't get into an argument with them. I've tried it and it seems to work!

very good point,. i had forgotten that one. ty for reminding me! doesnt work with my H cause he gets madder and madder when his tricks arent working. but it can be a great tool.

I promised Jody a reply in this thread, so here it is. This is pretty tricky for me because I've decided I will try to limit myself here in a couple ways...

Stay on the thread topic, which eliminates sharing most of the thoughts I've had on the thread so far...

Stay constructive and helpful, which eliminates about half of the rest...

Stick to Agreement I, being impeccable with my word, which knocks out about 90% of the rest.

Thus, this should be tolerably brief.

I've read your post many times, Jody and got some new and different (for me) thoughts from it.

Somehow I came to see in a different light the things you wrote about how and why you tend to get defensive here when that happens. That came from trying to see your views from within your shoes, which works well for me sometimes. Given that I've had quite similar reactions many times over the years, I can feel some empathy about it, or at least understand on an emotional level. My experiences are different in some respects, but are similar in the core nature of the reactions.

One of the things I think I see at play here is that we both (all) tend to see what we're looking for in communication from others.

If you or I believe we will find something negative in a post from Aqua or anyone else, in all likelihood you will find something that sets off a reaction about that. In the same light, if I believe I will see something in a post from you that upsets me, in all probability I will find that.

On the other hand, if we're looking for or expecting something positive from a person, we're likely to find that as well.

In this way, we pretty much pre-determine our reactions. Someone once asked me, when I was ranting about something someone did or said... not here, I think in real... "Were you looking for a reason to be angry about X?" Of course I denied it at the time, but after a lot of reflection I was indeed looking for a reason to get angry and find I did that a lot. I also did the same thing in positive ways. Looked for it when it was not apparent and voila.. there it was! Even though that was a mirage as well.



It's certainly nice to see this from you. What do you plan to do to make that happen?

However, on the question of attacking folks at BPDR...


This gives a pretty unpleasant choice about how to respond. Fight.. or flight. The age old question. I don't know if there is a general rule that works in all settings. Probably not. Sometimes it was "right" for me to fight for my self image, sometimes not. But I learned that it was NEVER the most effective response I could make.

The question that this poses for me is whether or not attacking is ever an appropriate or acceptable approach in venues like BPDR. I think not. The purpose of this place and places like it is recovery. I have never yet seen a recovery strategy that advocates verbal attack as an effective means to healthy living. So while we can sometimes make a case that an attacking response is justified, I don't think we can ever make a case that it's justified here.

And we now have a handy new alternative that gives us another much more effective choice. The "ignore" setting. I've tried this and it works beautifully. Although I found myself sorely tempted to bypass it sometimes to see what that person was going on about now, I realized that when that temptation happened, it was a matter of me looking for confrontation, or looking for evidence that they were naughty in order to prove to myself that I was saintly and not naughty at all.

I've come to learn that the "ignore" setting essentially takes away any reason I have to be bothered by people who seem negative, people who seem to dislike me, people I don't get along with... etc... (my ignore list is empty at the moment) thus there is no reason at all for me to be triggered by anyone here. If you trigger me, I'm going to invoke the ignore setting and then I won't be triggered and will have no reason to respond defensively to you or anyone else. Unless of course, responding defensively is what I WANT to do. And I don't.

As for this thought...



Boy, did I ever want to reply to this. But it doesn't fit the criteria I set for myself above and so I won't get into it. Sometimes I hate it when I have to play by my own rules. I will say this.... since you didn't hear my thoughts on this question from me, you cannot know for sure what I think about it. Have I ever made a statement like that here in a post or message? Yes, I have. But you don't know the context of the statement or of my thinking at the time because I don't think you've ever heard it from anyone since I haven't shared it with anyone.

However, as Aqua or somebody mentioned far above... thoughts on matters like this change as time goes on. For the sake of effective communication, however, I will offer to answer your question, (in private so there is no risk of feeling attacked publicly) if you should choose to ask me directly.

There, it's a sunny day and I need to go soak in it for a few minutes.

I appreciate your work on this thread Jody, but I will likely work against attack strategies here on BPDR whenever I see them no matter where they come from. (I apply this to myself as well... tried to get myself banned recently for an indirect unintentional attack... it can get pretty confusing around these parts. ) I just don't think they help any of us to get healthy.

Thanks for the post IBF. Now I have a question. If we feel someone is saying not-nice things about us, does that mean we're looking for it? That they're really not saying nasty things - we just think they are? What if the person really did say something not-nice? Then we're supposed to ignore it, right? Not say anything to them?

I'm not trying to be smart - I'm just trying to figure this out. Thanks!

Brilliant, Minx. Thanks!


~ jr

hmm lots of thoughts to answer. and all has to do with communication in some form! goes to show how woefully short of the mark i am.

lets see, i will go in order you said it. hows that.

i indeed get defensive, how shitty i "think" they are is simply that---what I think. and i know that and a buck will get a cup of coffee at the local truck stop. what I think about anyone matters little in the scheme of anything. i dont understand why others get so bent about it sometimes. i mean, im nobody. why would they care what i think about them?

that is all in my own views and doesnt suggest their a shitty person because i clash with them. it simply says i clash with someone, i dont like someone with x or y trait, and thus i need to remind myself to play in another corner from them.

your post got me smiling. how often do i feel that way too? lol. not a bad idea, tho, to use a guideline.


"""It's certainly nice to see this from you. What do you plan to do to make that happen?""" i plan to AGAIN teach myself to reply when im calm. to reread and not assume. to make sure my words are polite. to keep doing this and it is hard to do all the time. esp for me, the emotional, loud one i am. im a work in progress, not a finished piece by any means. i think i will always be a work in progress.

naw, i dont use the ignore thing. too much i can learn without it. i need to own my own choice of ignoring, and do it myself without a machine doing it for me. im a big girl, i can keep trying at it. what would i learn if a machine software did it for me? i need the self responsibility.

re about you wanting me banned, context is something i dont have much practice with. because my shit comes from people whose very consistency was their inconsistency, i never learned context. (in a space of a hour, when someone can call me a moron and then call me honey--well its kinda crazy making) this is something it seems i must begin to check out. interesting, a whole new concept. how i think is john doe said XX and Y. i drove myself crazy trying to learn why. he had no context because he never made sense to begin with and his context was in his own mind, his own alcoholism, and his own mental illnesses. thus, his context would have been as nutty to me as his words. now i realize i was passing by something important in communication skills.

so , i do need work on this new concept. i will begin looking for contexts, and see what i can learn. i do see what you mean by this.

ibf, im trying to learn a whole new way of thinking and it isnt easy for me. sounds like you have done this also, so you know the work involved. and might have some tips for me? i have a new T- i see her next week, and maybe i will make some progress if she is any good. i been dealing with all this with no T, no med but paxil, and i have went backwards a lot in the last few months. i hate it, that forward progress was hard fought and i hate to lose it.

"""thoughts change"" im glad you brought this up. the thing is, others dont know the thoughts have changed unless their told. and a apology if needed to someone. (not saying you). thus, the idea of "i said that 6 months ago and i dont believe it any longer" is well and good for that person. not for the one who was told it or heard it. it still hurt, and unless one tells the person, "hey, i used to not like you but now i find i changed my mind" then no one knows its diff. see?

communication. im usually hanging on here (the board) by a string anyways...it seems. . my plan is to be as honest as i can about myself. and as polite as i can. (i need a lotta work on that as again, i have no role model for it either)

i sorta chop my way thru the jungle of learning, and i need a lot of machetes.

i agree, attacks are not acceptable. from me, from anyone. sometimes my mind just doesnt stop and think and again, more things for me to work at.

ty for that clear respectful post!

P.S. BRAVO, Minx. Best thinking I've read on that here or anywhere in a long time.



BG, I dunno what we're supposed to do. I just know from experience how things have worked for me and some things others suggest that have worked for them.

No, the self-fulfilling prophecy says that we tend to see what we're looking for. Many statements can have different meanings to different people. If I open a thread by someone whose statements tend to set off a defensive reaction in me, chances are I'm gonna have a defensive reaction to what I see in this statement, even if everyone else who looks at it sees something entirely different.

I think what many, including you were writing about above, is the value of checking for understanding before we make judgments about a statement that evokes a strong feeling in us. Paraphrasing, restating, just asking... "when I read your statement about xyz... it lead me to think you meant abc... but I want to check to make sure I understand it. So, is abc what you meant, or was it something else?" And we withhold judgment until they acknowledge that our understanding of what they said is the same as what they meant. Until then, we just do not and cannot know what they mean. So any judgment we make about it is very likely to be off the mark somehow.

So maybe they are saying really really not nice nasty things... what choices do you have about responses to that? There are many.

But the Five Steps is the best place I know to figure out what kind of response is the most effective. I've practiced that many times and found it to work well. Made myself a little Word template and filling it out now takes less than five minutes most times. With the last step being to look at my response and ask... "Is this the most effective response I can possibly make in this situation?"

You have no idea how many times I've had to dump posts because they did not do the job in that regard. For a time, I dumped more than I submitted. And I think that's a really good sign of learning. But the practice of using the Steps was quite helpful. Now, I combine a mental 5 Steps exercise, and check against each of the Four Agreements before I do a post. If it doesn't measure up, it doesn't get sent.

For example, I've had to delete 675 of my draft posts on the current thread about female masturbation and orgasm. It's looking less and less likely that I'll get one that makes the grade for submission.

Surely there are many ways to skin the communication cat. (Sorry, Minx.. just had to...) but this way has worked very well for me and I've learned a lot in the process. So it's an idea and an offer, not a judgment or prescription.

I want to share an example of my own foul up to help explain what I mean by this...

A few months back I was doing some work offline with some members here about learning how to use The Tools effectively and how to apply them here. We had been working together for several weeks and I was doing some kinda facilitating in the group as well as learning all the skills myself.

One of the people I was working with.. let's call him or her "Scowler" had, on several occasions, sent messages or posts that I took to be critical and defensive and a bit aggressive. One day after submitting my response to the exercise we were working on that week, I got a couple messages or emails frrom Scowler. My first thought about the first one was something like.. uh-oh... now s/he's going and getting defensive again and here comes the aggressiveness, etc... so I fired back a firm strong response stating clearly that this sort of thing was not welcome and I didn't like it and it didn't feel good. S/he replied not long after with a message that sounded something like... "huh?.... you got me wrong, Buddy... I was not thinking that stuff"... and so I looked again at the original message. Sure enough, in the third sentence there was the statement that explained clearly what she was thinking.. I had missed it completely because I'd made up my mind after the first two sentences that this was another one of those messages I didn't like and I was gonna let him/her know I didn't like it in no uncertain terms.

Boy, did I ever feel like a doofus for that one. I apologized and reminded myself to not presume to know what others mean at least until I've read it all and checked for various possibilities...

We got along just fine after that. I'm lucky that Scowler was such a forgiving and thoughtful person in the end. It could have gone waaaay worse.

rofl. ibf, you have no idea how many posts i never write, altho i dearly wish i could. yeah, the sex thread...hahaha oh man. but most here dont get my sense of humor so i dont post it. painted lady is one who does...hi PL. hows come i dont get a T who tells me to go home and practice masturbating? hahaha. i couldnt resist that one. well, T, monday i did this, tues i couldnt do that...oh man the possibilities are endless. but minx might take it i was laughing at her--NO im not, or that i wasnt taking it all seriously --i did, but it is hard sometimes to not find the humor in life...so i didnt post in the thread at all. it would not have been helpful in the long run. humor is the best thing for sex....ibf. humor is sexy, it is mood inducing..and most women love it. most men do also when they get past no one is laughing at their equipment.

damn, im off my own subject.

sometimes my sense of humor is my downfall...big time. i still wouldnt change it.

BG, i think it depends on who it is , the situation, a whole lotta things. what doesnt work well is immediate attack, hey, you call me a bitch, bitch? type stuff. immature response. neither does immediately owning the others words..."oh damn, she said i was worthless, i must be, oh im hurt now and want to hurt them back, or i want to cry and say no, im really not." it all is owning their feelings, and not usually a helpful response. there are ways to respond without owning their words, tho.

i learned some other responses, some are "i see thats your view of me", or "i dont allow someone to call me mean things so i must leave now". sometimes ignoring is the best, if you know talking just wont work at all or might get you hurt. (in the case of my H, its usually smartest to not answer at all or say uh huh at the most). he wants the argument, and i wont give it to him. after all, he is entitled to believe im a moron if he wants. put the ownership where it belongs, on the person who said the words.

BG, just because we might expect something negative from past experience, doesnt mean they arent being negative and our instincts were correct. sad to say, shitty people usually dont change their spots/ its still up to us on how we respond tho. i think, in my case for sure, i expect my H to be shitty to me. so i will tend to hear it even when he isnt meaning it. we hear it with a "slant" to it with our own history. thats a toughie to break--to regain trust enough to not be ready for the knife in the back.

i do have to say this. and its on the communication topic. ibf you said something along these lines, as did aqua. of what you said or thought was in the past and now things are diff. i wanted to address that since it got lost in the shuffle somehow.

words go out, and while we may realize we no longer think the way we used to, there is no way for the other person to know this. all they can do is take what was said and go from there. to think oh i dont mean it any longer, is to assume somehow thru magic the other person also knows this. there is no way another can know what we are thinking unless its told out loud to them. "what i said last time, i dont mean it so it doesnt apply". ummm, yes it does apply and matters. those words hurt, and that matters. all we have to go on is past experiences and responses. to send out some mean one, and then disregard it to ourselves only, is just meaningless.

I wont know if ibf changed his mind about banning me or not unless ibf himself tells me. or i ask, taking a chance he will lash out at me. other than that, all i have to go on is he doesnt want me here. that gives me no excuse to be shitty to him, but it does show why im cautious around him or someone else who has done that.

to just ignore our past behavior is just not healthy at all. mine, his, theirs, hers. whoevers.

OK, since it's now firmly entrenched in the issue of communication... (I can see that, but in a very limited way...) I will take a brief stab at this..



Yes, it does show why anyone would be cautious, even me. But if that caution or the reasons for it are an obstacle to effective work here, what can you do about it?

Let's see what you have as a basis and what your options are for responding to it...

You have a statement from somebody you haven't named that IBF may have said he wanted you banned.

You have a statement from IBF that he once made such a statement to someone who may or may not have reliably communicated his meaning and intent to you when they shared the comment.

You have statements from several people and understand for yourself that people change their views about such issues in places like this.

You have a statement from IBF that he will tell you exactly what he thinks if you ask him.

You have a suspicion that if you take him up on this offer and ask what he thinks he may lash out at you.

You have a judgment you've made that IBF may not want you at BPDR because he made a statement like this some time ago.

Lots of things there that could create feelings and thoughts that get in the way of clear communication and understanding it seems.

You also have to deal with the question such as... "why would IBF's opinion..or anyone else's opinion about this make much of a difference in what I am able to do here for my recovery?"

So what options do you have for dealing with this feeling that gets in the way of effective communication? Which of those options would be most effective? And which will you try first, and why? If you work on these questions from within the context of the Five Steps and Four Agreements, what thoughts come out in front?

I think I understand all this. But I usually don't go on the premise that such-and-such a person will hurt me or say nasty things to me. I don't expect it. I don't look for it. So when it does happen, I'm surprised and hurt. I'm NOT looking for it - I just see it when it occurs. By then, I'm usually so upset and intimidated that I don't know what to say at all. My M/O is to not say anything at all. I'm so scared of getting banned here that I don't know what to do, so I don't do anything. I see other people confront others but I don't know how. And when I do, it usually backfires on me. I can't think of any particular instance when it's actually happened - I just know that I don't know what to do.

And often, if I do ask, the replies are so convoluted that I can't understand them anyway. I need to be spoken to in plain language. But sometimes people get into these conversations that I just can't wrap my head around. So I'm left scratching my head, and walking away, frustrated. Sometimes it take 2-3 times before I understand what was said. It makes participating here very difficult for me.