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This is a spin off from the Communication thread and although it's about one dimension of communication difficulties on boards like this, I think it can best ride on it's own.

One of the issues at the surface now is how and why we might get defensive when we think someone is saying critical things about us to others. Trust me, I have some very painful first hand experience with this. Going in both directions.

Many writers suggest we create our own pain by interpreting things we hear or see in ways that feel painful when it might not be necessary at all.

I would agree with that.

So let me point out a few things about the statements regarding my comments about banning.

This statement, from me...



Includes a fact. I have made a statement in favor of banning at one time. It includes another fact. That the statement was heard second hand and did not reflect all of my thinking on the matter at the time.

This statement, on the other hand...



is different from the first in several important respects... "ibf is trying to get you banned" seems more an opinion than a fact. It was from a third party who was guessing what IBF was trying to do, because IBF didn't say to anyone.. "I am trying to get Jody banned." The statement also implies reasons IBF might have made the kind of statement he made. That's also a guess, because IBF didn't say anything to anyone about banning jody for being jody.

So.. how much of the pain was self-inflicted? Hard to say. I know I would have been upset to hear that comment from someone. I wonder what I might have done to check it out.

For the record, here are things IBF has thought and said on the matter.

The context is that questions were posed to the CL/SCL team about "how shall we figure out what to do about using the ban in times of difficulty?" (This is part of their job and there were several difficult situations going on at the time.) Examples were cited and as I recall half a dozen situations involving different people were considered in trying to find a workable and fair use for the process. IBF, like several others, chimed in with an opinion. His opinion essentially said... "in this kind of situation, when this kind of thing happens, a ban would be appropriate, and in these other situations it might not be effective at all." Others did not see any value in using the ban at all in any of the situations. Some did see some appropriate use of the ban. There was no consensus at all.

As it happens, during that period, he also said to some of the same people...

IBF has said he thinks the ban is not the best way to solve problems like this. In fact, he thinks it's a pretty crappy way and we can do much better.

IBF has said he thinks we could do individual and group coaching and mentoring with people who seem to struggle with ROEs or using board resources effectively and those approaches would be far superior to banning.

IBF has said... "watch, I'll demonstrate that." And he put a great deal of effort into a little project that did demonstrate the effectiveness of these alternatives and their superiority to banning.

IBF has said he thinks that if nobody is willing to take those approaches, the only constructive use for a ban would be a short term thing to get an individual's attention and get him/her focused on working appropriately.

IBF has said he thinks that with the advent of the "ignore" function, there is almost no valid reason for using the ban function because anyone who is offended by a person's post more than once is responsible for their own suffering because they did not invoke the "ignore" function.

IBF has said some behaviors would qualify as an attempt to harm the board and call for banning. IBF did not attribute these to any person or persons because he didn't have any evidence that clearly demonstrated those behaviors.

So, was IBF "trying to get Jody banned"? IBF would say no. You may think or say what you wish. If uncertain about any of this, you may ask.

What does IBF think today? IBF thinks Jody has worked really hard in the Communication thread and although there are statements he does not agree with, and a few that make him wince, he appreciates her willingness to expose her vulnerabilities for the sake of learning and recovery. He thinks that's a very nice example for the board.

And he also thinks... "Oh CRAP, I've missed most of my hockey game!!! Go Penguins... Penguins Rule, Flyers Drooooool."

Later, kids.

Lashless LaRue

Right on all counts.

i cant get too much into this without revealing the identity of someone i wont rat out.

so i best back off and only talk about how i felt. hows that, ibf?

you know i am one of the ones here usually in trouble for something or other from someone. i have said i dont understand the times i broke some rule or what i do wrong. seldom has anyone ever told me in plain english jody you did this and that, you are in time out for however long because... i have been in time out and it isnt fun. most of the time i have no idea exactly what i did, and im one who needs that black and white "you did this and its not acceptable because..." stuff. (i have posted that more than once also).

so hearing what i heard at that time concerning a remark you may or may not have made,, gave me pause. it didnt affect much about my speaking to you or anyone else, it only fed my paranoia about the mods and admins, which is already there anyways. (sorry, no point in lying is there)

i am glad we can talk now in good terms, as i said likes or dislikes do not have to come into this board in order to learn. i dont dislike you as much as im afraid of most men so i tend to be too defensive around you. something in me makes you wince..lol..and its kinda a tough match. i think we are both doing great at working around and thru things, tho.

please dont worry on it, i had forgotten about it until the other statement was made that """ I think this shit should be stopped dead in it's tracks until you exhibit some progress. I really do."""" for one, i dont know what shit i did, for 2 , the only way to stop "it" in its tracks is to ban me. "until i show some progress" well, im not sure who judges each of our progress, and this illness is famous for 2 steps fwd, 1 back --so i need to know who might judge me and what history we have. i also dont think any of us need a judge, as we had enough of that in our life and need to learn on our own. we dont need another parent.
and then i realized i was telling all this to you, who i heard wanted me banned! lol..! can you imagine doing that? it was like...ummmm, what have i done? im preaching to the choir about banning? lol. was funny, really...and i do mean that as in humorous!

i think this may be what SG and i discuss altho i dont know if she wants it CC or pm. im not sure i trust pm but i dont want someone hurt or thinking i mean them when i dont.

but your clarification of all that was nice to read and to hear. and Nik did a great job helping me --thanks again Nik--- but still, alls i get told is its a gray area which means i fuck up (step in it) without knowing i did yet again. so.........some things for me just need to be spelled out because ones gray area and common knowledge just wont work with me, as i was not raised the same and none of us were. so acceptable to me meant i was in bars at age 10 and i dont know how many would say how unacceptable is that? see? again, it is in the beholders eyes, not the doer.

i struggle constantly with the ROE. constantly.

oh, a time out works well. usually its i need to calm down and it helps me do that. usually now i can put myself in time out,...progress indeed!

if we both give each other a chance, maybe we each arent half bad. never mind..lol..i dont want to know.

what would you have done to check it out? again, depends on the circumstances for me. at the time, i was in trouble, others were in trouble, shit was bubbling over on here, and i was too afraid to ask you. you know how much trouble i have with men. i just couldnt bear to hear and have to argue it with you. i was just too afraid. indeed, i might do it entirely diff this time around as i have learned a lot.

ty for this thread. i thrive on this kind of honesty and help.

Jody, I wonder if you are taking what is someone's opinion given as mental health help (that's what we're here for) as admonition of rule breaking, when it isn't.

I also wonder, since you bring up the Rules of Engagement in this context, if you are thinking of them as rules. Despite the name, they aren't. They aren't enforceable as rules, except perhaps as self-rules that are self-enforced. Perhaps the spirit in which they were named.

Honestly, I think your concerns about rule breaking are unfounded.


From what I've observed, if you've been "in trouble" officially, as far as board rules and chance of banning, it's been rare. And as far as those times when you are "in trouble" with a fellow board member (whether or not it's "usually"), so what? They aren't your boss. If you don't understand someone's expectations, then either do your best, or simply don't engage with them. Then let it go.

hey ellen, i probably could let it go easier now than before.

hmm, how to explain this? and make sense? i wish i had your verbal gift. i am always afraid im in trouble. its because how i was raised, it is a part of me. and my H, its all i have ever known. so maybe i take it harder than another would...i dont know. could be a issue i need to work on. because being in trouble to me means death, i might see it diff than some others.

plus, again due to my real life people around me, i need things in concrete, things like rules. without going deeply into it, i never had rules and was always in trouble but never told why. "if you have to ask, im sure not telling you" so when i read "rules of engagement" i truly think they are rules. meant to be followed or else consequences are also there to be used. i am having trouble getting used to a gray world, with rules which arent rules, things "understood" to be followed but not written down, etc. i feel lost and sorta tread my way carefully to see what is up and what isnt. its only lately i have felt healthy enough to even bring this up or discuss it.

i truly do not know the process admins or mods go thru to decide things. it is something we arent meant to know, perhaps, i dont know. all i know when i ask is usually im told its a gray area and im dumb to not know it. well, maybe i am but i dont do gray areas well and as i said, some things normal to me are not normal to another. when i feel so uncertain and unclear, i tend to be defensive or crappy at times to test the water and the rules. like, if only i act out enough, someone will TELL me those damn rules. it doesnt work, tho.

""""I wonder if you are taking what is someone's opinion given as mental health help (that's what we're here for)""", here is where we may agree to disagree. someone elses opinion* about who i am or my issues can not be helpful, by its very definition. no one knows me, not really, and no one is healed enough to hand out judgements by the dozen, esp worded in tacky ways. thus, if someone gives me a view* like some do here in a kind way, i drink it up. if someone tells me something in a critical way, i will not listen, much less will it help. i dont believe anyone should voice a opinion--ie--judgement--about someone as a person and think its helpful. a opinion of jody, your this and that, isnt helpful. it is hindering. it is for the person saying it, not the person spoke to. it can worded to be useful and helpful, but it isnt. a view, said respectfully, is different.

somehow i think if i told you something negative about you, even tho i dont know you, you might not take it kindly. you might pay no attention, but you wouldnt listen either. and you shouldnt. why? because i dont know you. because i am not healthy enough to judge another in any form, because i dont know you and all your twists and history. thus, it would not be a informed opinion, only a self opinion thru my own history and issues. certain words are judging words, certain words are not judging. if one wants to voice a opinion, know where it comes from and why. if one wants to voice a view to be helpful, calling em things isnt helpful. explaining things can be very helpful.

we are not here to hurt another or judge. we are here to work on ourselves and be as kind to another as we can. we can word things good or bad, but we arent here to judge another with our own shit. in no way is that mental health help. it is mental health hindering. a opinion can be non judging, depending on how its worded.

if my concerns are unfounded, then thats my issue because its how i see it. and i have been gotten onto enough to know they are not always unfounded.

funny enough, the first time i was in trouble here was not long after i joined. a person who went by luka was a mod. and he/she said something i have never forgotten. they said, "i will be watching to see if you hurt anyone here, and if you do, i will jump you immediately and make sure you never do again". or something like that. those words echo in my mind almost every time i post. am i hurting someone? how am i? what did i do wrong? i never forgot them. maybe it colored everything since. i guarantee you i learned a shitload from that person and i hate the fact they left. they took no shit, wouldnt allow shit, and by their being so strict with me, i learned damn fast i better begin changing. its a far cry from it now. now it seems no one cares who hurts who, and who behaves half ass decently or who doesnt. i still value i had that interaction. maybe i still use it as a ruler for myself.

your words of dont engage someone is exactly right. i did, im paying the price, and i have no idea where my mind went and what i was thinking when i did it.

ty for sharing your thoughts, ellen. i appreciate it. maybe this helps you understand mine a bit better.

Jody, you don't need to explain yourself to me. And, to be honest, that seems a lot like justification. "See, it's okay if I twist things, because of what I experienced as a child." You know what? To me, none of that matters. You are you. I accept you. You don't need to explain yourself to me. I offer these thoughts because they may be helpful to you in your mental health improvement journey, which is, after all, why you and all of us are here.

I think to be mentally healthy and grown up means not following other people's rules but our own internal rules. Not letting others decide for us. External rules may be one of the many things that informs our choices (and only one of many), but when it comes to choosing what to do, we follow our own rules. We don't have to know what someone else's rules or wishes or whatever are. We freely make our own choice.

Honestly, I don't understand why you disagree on the giving each other opinions on mental health issues. I don't see why you are here and posting if you aren't interested in the perspectives of others. What's the point if you aren't interested in our opinions and think they can't be helpful? And it seems to me you do listen to the opinions of others.

Ah, reading on, I see you say you will listen to the views of others, but not the opinions. But, views ARE opinions. Those views people give you in a kind way are a type of opinion, and that is what *I* meant when I said opinion. Please read what I said again in that light.

Jody, I see what seems to be a lot of twisted thinking in what you write here. I don't mean that critically. Like, isn't saying you don't know me black and white thinking? Neither of us are new here. Plus, we've directly interacted a good bit. Yeah, doesn't mean we know each other completely, or anywhere close. I think you are pointing at something real when you said you don't know me. But your words twist it into something that's just not true. Of course, I can't get in your head. Maybe it's poor wording. "I don't know you" generally means two people aren't aquaintances, aren't people who deal with each other and interact. Which isn't true here.

And, you make an awful lot of assumptions about me.

And I think after that you go off on a tangent of your own thoughts and aren't even talking to me anymore.

Seems to me, from what you said, that Luka was quite nasty to you. Making you responsible for other people's feelings. You aren't. And trying to control you. Of course, I don't have Luka's words. Only you putting into words how you heard the message.

I think we have different perspectives. It's okay to have different perspectives. But there are times when I see some unhealthy stuff in your perspective. Sometimes I want to try to help you see things differently. Not because you should think like me. But rather to help you find a healthy version of your own perspective.

P.S. It occurs to me... I may be getting off topic here (as far as the initial post). Though not quite sure. Not sure if this is natural discussion that follows, or a side discussion that should have been taken to a new thread.

ellen, i hope you know i dont mind you telling me your perspective of something i say. and i appreciate it and will give thought to what you said.

i think it has to do with the way its presented. which is probably what i meant when i made no sense earlier.

maybe i meant what i will respond to, and maybe others arent like me and would respond to a negative phrase rather than one set forth in a positive way. see, you can say something about me but it sounds so non judgemental that i never mind it.

hard for me to put into words.

if a mod wants to clip it out and make a new thread, i am fine with it. we probably are hijacking ibf's and i dont mean to. we just got to talking and on it went.

i do want to clear this up tho. """"See, it's okay if I twist things, because of what I experienced as a child""". no no no! i didnt mean "its ok" i meant this is why i see things how i do and i work really hard on changing that. it isnt ok! but sometimes, for me, with my journey, it just is and i have to work at it and dig to see why i act a certain way and how to change that. and your posts, and others like you, help me to do that. when im talking about my faults, or negative traits, i always mean "this is where it came from, and i see that now, and it will be worked on to change it". never do i mean "its ok". oh hell no. its just the longer i delve into this, the more shit i see and where it came from.
that is how my T did it with me. she would say what are you feeling? (and go back and make me find the feelings, not the thoughts) then she would say where did you learn that? (again, go back and delve) then she would say, why did that particular behavior not work for you? oh, she busted my chops but i think i still use that method to work on myself. it may just not come out that way in type at times.

""""To me, none of that matters. You are you. I accept you. You don't need to explain yourself to me. I offer these thoughts because they may be helpful to you in your mental health improvement journey, which is, after all, why you and all of us are here.""" boy, ellen, that is one of the kindest, rarest things anyone has ever said to me. i will keep it always. i accept you also. as who you are, trials and joys and all.

hey, there could be a shitload of twisted thinking. i want it pointed out to me. sometimes i cant see it, ya know?

""""But there are times when I see some unhealthy stuff in your perspective. Sometimes I want to try to help you see things differently. Not because you should think like me. But rather to help you find a healthy version of your own perspective.""". hey, that is cool. go for it. anytime.

i will now ponder awhile on what you said. i could be really wrong in my thinking....

thank you, ellen.

Ellen, it's okay with me if you two want to go on in this direction here. I'm about done with the points I was hoping to make and it feels kinda "natural" as I think the issues are deeply related.

Jody, just a couple points of clarification, intended to ease your concerns about several statements.

I don't want, need or care to know who told you I was "trying to get you banned." I know what I meant by it, know what the truth is and I'm comfortable with it and it doesn't matter at all who said it. I assume it was somebody trying to be helpful to you. That's one of our jobs here, and we've all made misguided statements for that reason now and then.

I can control this consequence myself and assure that it will never happen again, so I need not worry about it. I've put more than enough bullet holes in my foot this way already. I simply will not discuss a third person with anyone else here. So, as of a few months back, if anyone claims I've said something negative about another, you may be sure they've made it up.



This could seem like nitpicking... but I encourage you to think carefully about this. My statement was that some things you wrote in your posts .. among many many things you wrote... made me wince. I wince here most days at thoughts, Jody. More often mine than anyone else's. The statement was not about Jody. It was about a couple thoughts, as I interpreted them, among many thoughts you shared which I appreciated very much and said so. So Jody doesn't make me wince. She can make me sigh or smile or spit on the floor or shout out the window, but there's nothing about her that makes me wince.

Jody, an idea offered in response to one of your recent posts. Take it or not, it's not meant to be critical but I think it could be powerfully helpful to you. You might check out my premise about that with your new T.



It's encouraging that you acknowledge this possibility. It's encouraging that you ask for it to be pointed out. But if you want to change it, and have the change be lasting, I believe you will have to do most of the work of finding it and finding alternatives all yourself.

One way to do that would be to find ONE form of twisted thinking from your posts each day.. any of them, but recent ones might be tougher to deal with unemotionally at first... print out the 10 Forms of Twisted Thinking and have it next to your screen... print out the 10 Ways to Untwist Your Thinking and have it there as well. Then find one twisted thought... name in writing, the kind of twist it is. Think for a minute about why you might have made that twist.. then go to the Untwisting Tip sheet and find one or two that you can use to untwist this thought. Write it out. Then summarize... in writing.. "so, when I find myself doing ABC one way to untwist that thought is to do DEF"...

I suspect this work could take you less than ten minutes a day. After several weeks, you might find yourself doing it automatically with your posts as you write them. You might find it making a difference in how some people respond to you.

Just a thought. Use it or not. You get to choose between learning your own way, or accepting/rejecting ideas from others which you may or may not ever do something about.

I don't know if this relates to this train of thought going on, but I'll give it a try. A few months ago I was talking to my T about paranoia. He told me that at times I have acted in a paranoid fashion. I told him that I couldnt' see it. He told me that if I wonder if I'm acting that way, that I need to check it out with others. Like I could ask him or my H. Because honestly sometimes I just don't see it. Or I'm not sure. I assume that once I start doing this, eventually I will begin to see it myself. So by checking out our behaviors with others, we can learn to spot the signs and eventually see it for ourselves. Maybe this is what Jody can do. She can begin by asking others here to help her, and then eventually see it for herself. To me, that's a learning process and can help us in recovery. I know for me, now I question myself more (not in a bad way) and look for the signs. I'm not wandering in the dark anymore. I hope this helps.

thanks for being so honest, ibf. it wasnt so much about you as about the entire process here and myself and my own stuff.

ah, i kinda thought it funny how you used "wince". usually i can make someone scream at me. lol. just humor is all.

now something for you to examine in you. i note you change the subject when i bring up the fact i trigger something in you. i know i do. its too obvious. every time i gently try to mention it, you change the subject. your choice, of course, but you may want to think about that sometime.

im ok with this, ibf. i hope you are also. i appreciate your ideas and your time spent posting them to me.

I will think on it some. And thanks. Subject changing is one of my very best tricks, ya know. Toss me a red peanut M&M.

i find it hard to read the intent in your post, so i wont assume anything.

I like that reply. Quite effective. I will gladly clarify my intent - lash free - if you choose to ask.

(Replying to Jody's reply to my me).

Jody, I do agree with Ibfuddled that (putting it in my own words) there is benefit to finding and countering twisted thinking on one's own instead of having it pointed out. Though I also think seeing others point out where one's thinking might be twisted might help one in learning to spot twisted thinking.

Another reason one really has to do one's own un-twisting is others can't see inside a person's head. Maybe we misunderstand what was said and the twisted thinking wasn't twisted. Maybe the twist we saw is more something that came out of attempting to put something into words rather than twisted thinking. Plus, we won't always see anothers twisted thinking. So, we can be helpful to each other in this, but we also have to each do for ourselves.

I'm glad you don't see saying why you do something as justification. I think I misunderstood why you were saying that. Since you ended with saying maybe I understood better, I took it as explaining to me being the point of saying it. Now I see, if I'm understanding you right, that you were explaining to me primarily for your own benefit.

yeah ellen, i tend to do that still and not realize i am doing it. my T would teach me so much, hell for 4 yrs!, that i guess its become automatic. to do these steps. (we never called my therapy any "type"so i dont know what it was called) but she had steps to work out issues or behaviors, and if followed exactly and honestly, taught me tons. tons. and how to change it and more important for me, WHY to change it.

i have to want to change myself. we all do. i wont want to change because aqua thinks im a whatever it was she said, or ibf wants something, or Ash doesnt like my personality. and for too long i did that--if my mom, H, someone said they didnt like something in me, i would try to change it to suit them. however, that will simply not work in the long term permanent deal. i must see my behaviors came from x, produce y, and want to change them to z. according to her, we ALL do this. our behaviors/feelings come from other people in our lives, thru out our lives.

i noted some others here think that--that i use it as a excuse. far from it, but most dont believe me when i say it. it is no excuse, it is how i learned to heal. i apparently do it almost auto pilot now!

to identify twisted thinking is very hard for me. i do seem to need help at times because to me it isnt twisted at all. i find that hard to cope with. i dont mean to imply another should do the work for me and i should nod and say ah, i was twisted, thank you , i will change it right now. no. but some here, like you, i trust enough that if you choose to say something may be twisted, im grateful.

i just wanted you to know, ellen, in no way do i excuse something i do and blame it on another and say well, hell, i cant do a thing about it. nope. doesnt happen. indeed, to admit in the past this happened, and i behave today due to that, took me a long time and lots of guts to face. my T would say, why are you behaving the victim? she was a tough counselor. i loved it. i love consistent toughness. i will rise to it every time. fair expectations...i like that.

sure ibf. what was the intent behind the reply and im wondering dare i offer you a M and M? hmm, dunno if any red ones are left tho...and it IS dark choc.....

Dark chocolate is very healthy - eat away!!!!!

Okay, Jody. here ya go.


OK, the reply was... highlight added to my reply...


My intent included several parts.

1. To acknowledge that I do indeed use the subject changing device sometimes when I get to feeling uncomfortable. It's one of my BPDish patterns. Usually innocuous, it can seem invalidating to some if they are invested in the topic and I just scoot off to another topic to avoid potentially painful stuff. It's one of my three most common patterns... my challenges with emotional honesty.

Subject changing, blame sharing or shifting, and humorous statements at the end of a statement, which is just another form of subject changing. I was first called on a version of the humor thing at age 17. These are my three most common BPD patterns, and while they only come about under pressure, I know they can be invalidating and annoying. Apparently they can be annoying enough to get me divorced.

2. To thank you for reminding me about this pattern and to tell you I will think about it some more and work on it. I've done well working on the other two, but haven't touched this one much yet.

3. The humorous close for the reason mentioned above.

That's it for my intent as far as I know... As usual, two or three times longer than the statement itself.

Does that answer your question?

yes, thanks!

i really like your humor and just wasnt sure how to respond to it but then i figured, wtf, and replied with like humor. i also have the humor as a coping mechanism. i like it. in type i have to be careful because it might come across as sarcastic if we arent careful. so i know, and will respond in kind to yours!

i came so close to saying,,,ok here is a red m and m, or something but i was afraid THAT would be invalidating to you...hahaha, so i just went with the asking post.

i dont find your subject changing invalidating at all. i recognize it comes from you being uncomfortable about something and wanting to avoid it. i do that also sometimes. so no worries, i just dont want to push something on you unintentionally. when your ready, you will address it. as will i, on things i avoid.

i do not mean to make you feel uncomfortable. try to realize that next time i say something that does, ok? same with you, and me feeling it. hows that?

once i know you better, i will understand your intent better.