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Well, I had another "incident" with my H today. I was sooo embarrassed! We were on the plane coming home from New Mexico. Actually, we had to fly to Atlanta before we could turn around and get to Indiana! Anyway, my H was sitting in the aisle seat, I was in the middle, and this woman from Massachusetts was at the window-seat. She started talking to me and we had a lovely conversation for about an hour. Then I got real tired, put on my CD player and fell asleep.

As we were landing, I was getting my stuff together and I said thank you to the woman for such a nice converstion. My H, who didn't speak at all during the flight, turns to the woman and says "thank you for putting up with my wife during the flight."

Well, I got soooo embarrassed! I couldn't believe he said that! He said it in a joking way, but I was not amused! He looked at me and realized I was not happy. He told me he was only joking. I didn't say anything, and then he asked me if I was upset and I said "yes." So HE gets mad at ME for being upset and what HE said. We left the plane and he walked off without me to the next gate.

I didn't say anything to him. I didn't act angry or yell or anything. I just went my own way and sat by myself at the next gate. Finally he came over to me and asked me to sit with him. We got on the plane and I didn't talk to him. I knew the plane was not the place to try to initiate a discussion about this.

I closed my eyes and tried to sleep. All of a sudden I feel him taking my hand. I let him do that. Then eventually he said to me "you know I was only joking." I told him I didn't think it was funny. He said we see things differently but he said he would not do that again. I said "thank you."

I think he realized that what he said embarrassed me. I thought about it and realized that I felt like a little kid that the woman had to endure. I was totally embarrassed and felt totally invalidated. I hope he understands how I felt.

I decided that I'm going to write him a letter and try to explain all of this. I want him to understand about the concept of invalidation and what it does to me. As I thought about it, I tried to use the "I" word and not "you make me feel....." But this time I didn't have to say very much - he realized how upset I was.

I don't like feeling like a little kid. The woman initiated the conversation and did not have to "endure" me if she didn't want to. I know my H didn't mean harm, but what he said sure didn't come out very well.

What he did to you was just dirty. I would have felt very embarrassed too! I think you guys need to work on your communication, like you said before.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

I'm sure that remark was a shock and very triggering. I would not have enjoyed that, myself.

You said you think he gets your POV. Would it be interesting to try to see his POV? Like, imagine alternate explanations. Maybe he just really made a clumsy joke. Or maybe he'd felt left out, ignored by you for the entire flight, and there was some irritation that colored his joke. Or maybe it was "guy humor." What I'm learning in my own life is that I can't rely on controlling my environment in order to have good feelings. I can choose interpretations of events that either contribute to my peace of mind, or rile me up. How would it feel to just accept that your h made a mistake, that it was a reflection on him, not you (I doubt the woman's perception of you was altered by your h's remark), and let it go?

This seems to me a meet in the middle sort of situation. Like, each of you seeing the other's perspective. Him realizing just because he meant well doesn't mean it was okay. (That is, assuming he did mean well, which is my working assumption.) I get the impression from what you say that he does realize that. And you understanding where is was coming from. Not that you have to accept it's okay. More like "I realize you didn't mean to be hurtful; I forgive you; but I still would like you not to make comments like that in the future."

BG, once upon a time, I too would write my guy (before we got married) big-ass letters, pouring out all my feelings, describing in explicit detail all the things that went on inside me, why I said/did what I did, yadda, yadda, yadda. Turns out that he would never read past the first three lines. He didn't need to. At a certain point, he outright told me "I won't read anything past the first three lines." That meant I got pretty good at winnowing down everything from seventeen pages to three lines of text.

The exchange you described already with your H is pretty much all we do anymore. I make it clear that I'm upset/bothered; he makes nice-nice. It's not his responsibility to know all the ins and outs of how my brain and emotions work. It's enough that he knows he screwed up and that I don't put up with that kind of nonsense. No need for dramatics or lengthy explanations.

But it took me a while to get to that point. I had to write out the 17 pages first for a while so I could sort things out so I could whittle it down to the 3 lines. After I trained myself to sort through it for MYSELF and distill it down to its essence, I found I could do it on-the-fly after enough practice. No need for letters, no need for 3 lines. Just a simple expression of "I won't tolerate that, if you do it again, I'll be even more pissed than you just saw me."

Simple and sweet.

I've been done this way. I just make a joke two times as cruel or obscene. No, I'm neither, but if someone pushes me, I am willing to go there to win. That is not saying that normally, I would. I wouldn't compete with someone who doesn't want to compete, not these days. It's not who I am. But I'm also someone who will go there to a certain point if I am pushed. I'm going to take up for myself, and if that takes trading crappy guy jokes, I'm willing to do what it takes to shut them up. A lot of guys are competitive. And I'm not willing to be owned by a petty joke. They appreciate that.

In the above post, I am assuming the context, though. I don't know how he said it or why or how. I think the things I can't hear are important here in seeing how I would respond. My bf could say that and I wouldn't think anything of it, given the context.

As a man who has been put through six shades of hell by a woman who not only wanted nice-nice, but for me to understand and be able to articulate back every nuance of feeling my monentarily neanderthal behavior brought up in her, with a dollop of self-flagellation on top, I humbly bow down to your boiled-down, no-nonsense approach.

jim

Jim, one thing I left out which I think is essential to the whole thing is: let it go. It's kind of the "make no assumptions" piece of the program. If they say "sorry" accept it. If they say "won't happen again" believe it. If they say "I was joking" trust that this is what they meant and/or intended.

Let the moment happen. Be in that moment. Set aside the past hurts, traumas, wrongs and everything else. Be just in that moment alone. And then move on. Move into the next moment.

Don't spend three days or three weeks focused intently on the "injured moment" rehashing everything, questioning everything, examining everything under a microscope, expecting assurances non-stop, written guarantees or anything else. It's not going to happen.

Give yourself up to five minutes to work through the intense emotion. BE pissed if you're pissed! BE hurt if you're hurt! But like the Super Big Gulp at 7-11, if you insist on keeping that 7-Up in there, you'll never get to try the Diet Coke or the Dr. Pepper or the red frozen stuff or anything else because you're too stubborn to dump it out and move on to the next thing.

If, after five minutes, you're still stuck in the moment ("I'm still hurt/angry because ...") then it's time to step aside and look at why you're not willing to dump out the flat, stale, tepid 7-Up and move one yet.

I'm not suggesting that this is a black-and-white thing -- that everyone must always get over everything within five minutes or less. For the most part, however, when we're dealing with Borderline issues, the majority of "flare-ups" should and can be resolved in a short period of time. That's what / how "normal / healthy" people live their lives. I promise.

Some things are certainly worthy of five hours, five days, five weeks, five years of sorting through. But an inappropriate comment? Five minutes. A sideways look? Five minutes. A huffy tense moment? Five minutes.

It took me maybe a year to train myself to write only 3 sentences (I go by sentences rather than lines.) I, too, used to write an Agony Tome to completely explain myself. Then I had to write the Agony Tome, and ask a friend to help me whittle it to its essence. Then I had to write it and whittle it myself. Now I might write 5 or 6 sentences sometimes and have to take a little time to get them down to 3. The more upset I am about an issue, the more important it is that I stick to 3 sentences. I found out recently that I need to do this with friends as well as my BF. I wrote 3 paragraphs to a friend over an issue I was upset about, and realized afterwards I could have taken the first sentence of each paragraph and had a complete communication.

Thanks to everyone for your replies. Well, I have gotten over it. After he took my hand on the plane and told me he was sorry, I got over it. Didn't think too much about it anymore. I don't think he was trying to be mean - I think he was trying to make a joke, however "not nice" it seemed to me.

In thinking about this, it ties in with the problems I have with Invalidation. The reason I thought of writing a letter was not to go over what he said on the plane. No, it was to discuss how I sometimes feel invalidated by certain ways that he talks to me. But now I'm thinking of not doing that at all. Oh, I don't know what to do.

I want him to understand the "invalidation" issue. But I don't want to re-hash old misunderstandings and hurts. I don't want to go there. So I'm wondering if I should just take him to a therapy session with me and let my T help me explain this to him?

He's really a good person. He wasn't upset that I was talking to that woman. He was reading and was fine with that. He was just making a joke. I know that. I just felt embarrassed at the time, that's all. As I said, I accepted his apology and we didn't discuss it at all after that.

I had many years of feeling invalidated by my parents and sister. Again, they never did anything out of meanness - it was just their way sometimes, but it always bothered me. So this is a continuation of that type of behavior. I am not too thin-skinned and can take a joke. But there are times when what he says is totally invalidating. I want him to understand how I feel about that.

You're right - a letter would get too involved and he would lose interest. But do you think if I brought him into my T's office maybe that would help? My T suggested it so I'm thinking that's a good idea. What do you think?

I'd give up on having him understand how you feel about being invalidated. I'd just start saying, "I won't tolerate [insert validating behavior here] from you, so don't do it again."

Taking your H to your T's office and having the two of you explain anything to him sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

jim

I think that it was very good that you were able to express how you felt in the moment rather than weeks later.

Isn't it kind of good that he is trying to see you side?

It's hard when you feel invalidated. And, it's hard to remember feelings aren't facts.

You wrote:

I want him to understand the "invalidation" issue. But I don't want to re-hash old misunderstandings and hurts. I don't want to go there. So I'm wondering if I should just take him to a therapy session with me and let my T help me explain this to him?

(emphasis added)

First, are you sure he doesn't understand the "invalidation" issue? Because he made that remark which you found hurtful, doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't understand your past issues with feeling invalidated as a child.

And, he may make comments that are hurtful and/or what you perceive as invalidating. You WANT him to understand where you are coming from, that makes sense. But, you can't make people get things, you can only ask that they consider your POV, and then set your boundaries accordingly.

What will you do when/if he makes hurtful/invalidating comments? What choices do you have and which ones benefit you the most?

Molly

Thanks Jim. I think I see what you mean. I don't want to make things worse. I do believe he understood how I felt yesterday and even though he felt he was making a joke, he probably won't do it again. I like the idea of saying that I won't tolerate such-and-such. That probably hits home more than it would if I took him to my T's office. He'd probably feel that I'm ganging up on him. Is that what you think?

Molly, I also like what you said about setting boundaries. I never thought of it in those terms before. So I can just keep repeating (if and when it happens again) that I won't tolerate that behavior. I can actually come out and tell him he's invalidating me. I think he would hear that. Thanks!

QOF - yes, it made me feel good that he at least understood that what he said really hurt me. He may still think it's a joke, but I don't. We both have to work at respecting each other. That's the bottom line I think. I say things he doesn't like occasionally so I have to learn the same thing. We both have work to do.

Just to fine-tune a little, I would be careful about telling him what he's doing. Then you get into the debate about his intentions. What cannot be debated is how you feel. "I feel invalidated by that remark."

I'm also not sure "invalidated" is a feeling. It might be more to the point to use the feeling words underneath, such as angry, sad, irritated, or whatever.

It's not enough to just say you aren't going to tolerate it. That's a command, not a boundary. You have to actually do it. If he does it, respond appropriately. Which, I think you largely did. If he hadn't noticed you reaction, it would have been appropriate to say something.

In a marriage, a lot of times a black and white "won't tolerate" doesn't work so well. Like, how do we respond to things a spouse says that we don't like, but that aren't things you'd consider leaving over. Letting the spouse see your disappointment (in your non-verbals) is one way. Taking space away from the spouse is another.

I wonder if instead of "I won't tolerate..." it would be better to think of it as "I won't find it acceptable..." and then from there respond appropriately.

Regarding if "invalidated" is a feeling, I think it's one of those secondary feelings. Perhaps. If that's the right way to say it.

I do think, when we feel invalidated, we really do feel invalidated. We experience it as a feeling. I do think it may be best to say it differently than "I feel invalidated". But, I see it as more getting at what that means. With or without the word feel, I guess. An example might be "When you say that, I feel like I'm not good enough for you.".

A past therapist once told me that the "basic" feelings are mad, sad, glad, ashamed, afraid, and jealous. All other feelings are combinations of these. So when I think I feel something like "invalidated," I try to break it down into basic feelings. I find I learn a lot when I do that, and frequently it lets me respond better.

I think that you may have something there about invalidation perhaps being a secondary feeling, Ellen. It might also be a label we give to a combination of feelings. When I feel invalidated, I feel some combo of ashamed and angry, for example, and I call that invalidated.

Moreover, there's a notion of metafeelings, that is, the feelings we have about our feelings. In my case, the anger I feel in invalidation may be a metafeeling -- I don't like feeling ashamed, and when somebody does something that triggers feeling ashamed in me, feeling the shame makes me angry. Voila, metafeeling.

jim

Well, "invalidated" is listed as a feeling word on this page: http://eqi.org/fw.htm. I think describing it as a secondary emotion fits.
This page says: "In general, researchers agree that there are different kinds of emotions/feelings. Mayer: "There are emotions which are more biologically oriented and then there are complex emotions which are saturated with thoughts and cognition. For example, a more basic-like emotion would be simple sadness, whereas a more cognitively-saturated emotion would be something like guilt, where usually you have to have learned something in order to feel the guilt."

In my own work, I am trying to communicate core feelings, such as anger, fear, sadness, and happiness. My apologies to BG for complicating this thread.


This is not a feeling statement. This is a thinking statement. A feeling statement can only follow the format: "I feel [an emotion word]." The minute the word "like" appears, it has become a thinking statement.

Argh, I must go off-track one last time now that I've read Jim's response. In DBT, the emotion about the emotion is actually called the secondary emotion. When I feel angry about being afraid, that's secondary, which Jim is calling a metafeeling (which is technically more accurate.) I felt I had to throw this in because I know you, BG, have done some DBT work, and I thoughtlessly contributed to a non-DBT oriented definition of "secondary emotion."

I think the point here is not whether they are called secondary emotions or complex emotions or thoughts or such, and what's a "feeling statement" verses a "thinking statement", but about how best to communicate one's thoughts and feelings (which do mix together) to another person. And specifically, giving Bordergirl suggestions for her situation. Whether or not my example is a "feeling" statement or not isn't really relevant. This isn't about practicing feeling questions. I offered it as a practical example for Borgergirl for an alternative to saying to her husband "you invalidated me". I stand by it as a good example. I don't care if it's not a proper "feeling statement". What it's suppose be is a way to convey that sense of having been invalidating, without judging either oneself or the other as right or wrong. If you have a suggestion you think is better, post it. And ultimately, Bordergirl will make her own choice about how best to say it in future communication with her husband.

I have already stated my alternative to "You invalidated me," which is, "I feel invalidated by that remark." The statement, "When you say that, I feel like I'm not good enough for you," could invite the argument, "Of course you're good enough for me," and it's off to the races, but yes, your suggestion is certainly one from which BG may choose.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I had a long talk with my T today about this. We both agreed that my H coming in to a session is not a good idea. My H does not take kindly to therapy and would probably feel that we're ganging up on him.

My T told me that I do have communication problems. He asked me if I ever told my H how I feel when he says or does things that invalidate me. I said "no" - I don't. So he wants me to begin by talking to my H and explaining how I feel when he says or does something that invalidates me. He didn't actually tell me the words to use, but I think I can figure it out by myself, and use some of the tips you guys gave me.

He said that my H will probably listen to me and understand. But he also said that if my H does not listen then he might have to come in for a session with me. But I think my H will be open to what I have to say.

I would imagine that when I say "I feel invalidated" - it is a secondary emotion. I would think I could say "when you say such and such to me, I feel that you're invalidating me and that makes me feel - (sad, mad, etc.). I think that's something he would be able to understand.

And yes, I do have to set my boundaries. What I don't like is that when I showed him that I was upset, he got mad at ME for being upset at him! He turned the whole thing around and tried to put me on the defensive. But I didn't play into it and kept my boundary and it worked out okay. I will have to keep on doing that.

I told my T that there are times when I do the same thing to my H. That I say or do things that invalidate him, which in turn makes him angry at me. I have to learn to not do those things, to stop and THINK before I say or do things. So it works both ways.

I'm going to talk to him either tonight or tomorrow night. I hope it works out okay!!!!

I don't have a lot of time right now, but I see something again...

You say that you DON'T tell your H when he's done something that upsets you. If I read further into your post, you tell us that you SHOW him instead.
That doesn't sound very effective to me...By the time we SHOW we're upset, we leave the other person no options but to react (in one way or another) to our BEING upset. In other words, they don't find out that anything's wrong until AFTER we get upset.
I don't know about you, but my "upset" is NOT an enjoyable situation.

Imagine for a moment if it were the other way around. You and your H are hanging out, doing your everyday social stuff. Then, out of the blue, he's acting very upset with you! Would you be happy or comfortable with that? How secure and safe would that leave you feeling?

I agree with your T - that you need to learn how to speak up about this sort of thing. Think about it...