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this is in reference to what you wrote in BGs thread about "i was invalidated again".

you posted about writing a 17 page letter to someone, and what they said to you.

it dawned on me, you used to tell me exactly the same stuff. and my long winded, usually from trying to sort it out in my own mind, posts drove you crazy.

now i know why. now i realize you were telling me what someone else told you.

how interesting is that. i was always thought it was just a quirk of yours and i was rattling on endlessly anyways. now i see, it came from somewhere.

Egads, that was hard to read!

Is it my eyesight, or is Ash's reply all little square boxes? Huh?

Is this any better?

It came from somewhere else for a reason. I did not parrot it back to you simply because someone else had said it to me. I said it to you because there is truth in the sentiment. No one really benefits from the long, drawn-out explanations. As hard as Person A tries to get Person B to understand every thought, every feeling, the history behind those thoughts and feelings, the connections between those thoughts and feelings, it will never ever happen.

We are separate human beings. Seventeen pages will never allow me to step inside someone else's head and see things through their eyeballs. So why go through the brain damage?


I see so many of these things happen here. This one explains. That one says "Yeah, I get it" but the first one does not really believe that is the case. So they explain further. Which muddies the waters, confuses things, adds in MORE stuff until everything has been thrown in, including the kitchen sink. Then the original person gets seriously frustrated/pissed that no one understand them, that they are always in trouble, that the rules are not clear enough, that people are picking on them, that BPDR is unfair, etc.

The more explanations that get offered, the more frustrating communication becomes.

As long as I understand my stuff and you understand your stuff, that is all that matters.

I do not need to well and truly understand your stuff and you do not need to well and truly understand my stuff. Simple acceptance that what we put forward is the truth, making no assumptions, accepting the other person as they are, we should be okay.

There can still be a basic level of understanding between us/two people in general without the long, drawn-out explanations, clarifications, trying to get behind their eyeballs, into their brain & heart, etc.

The fact is, people with Borderline have long thought that "to be understood, the other person must have no boundaries whatsoever which means they should be able to meld into my brain and heart as I am positive I am able to do for/to them."

This computer is odd so I am not able to readily pull up the circle diagram on the site that shows the blue, yellow and green circles showing healthy and unhealthy boundaries. The bottom line is that the in-depth explanations are, IMO, an attempt at forcing another person to become a green circle with them, to truly understand and see things exactly as they are seen by that person.

*Apologies for the odd style. This Toshiba computer in Tokyo is laid out very different from what I am used to and offers dual-language keys so I have been avoiding contractions like aren't and I'm.

Sorry for any odd posts - they looked fine from here!

ah, another thing we must agree to disagree on.

to accept one as they are, is not something i have seen often. more often people try to change others, as in dont write more than 5 lines, jody, or dont be emotional, jody, etc. i saw little acceptance at times here. i am finding it more and more tho. just not from the ones i expected it from. how odd is that. """Simple acceptance that what we put forward is the truth, making no assumptions, accepting the other person as they are, we should be okay. """

np, i find it interesting i saw where your view came from.

and your view is black and white, in that i or others were trying to show every little thing when some of us arent. that is your assumption onto my actions.

i believe you see it that way and wish things were in a concentrated, condensed, neat form when sometimes they cant be.

the mess sometimes that goes on here is how we learn to communicate better. it must be gone thru to learn.

"""The bottom line is that the in-depth explanations are, IMO, an attempt at forcing another person to become a green circle with them, to truly understand and see things exactly as they are seen by that person. """ that is never my intent but its interesting to see that you hear it that way.

how different we are. i would guess almost complete opposites.

im saying this in all politeness. i found it all quite interesting.

You can see it that way because you are Jody, not Ash. I see it the way I see it.

You see it as "Ash is talking in black and white and laying down rules of how I can post and making assumptions."

I see it as "Since you asked, here's where I stand on seventeen page posts based on my own experience, both first person (doing it myself) and third-party observer."

Since we have yet to agree on anything after all these years, I fail to understand why you opened this subject directly to me. I don't need to understand it, though.

Meanwhile, I'll go back to doing what I've been doing - letting you have your space, resolved in our differences and failure to reach basic common understanding.

Here and in Bordergirl's thread (and one yossarian has started with a similar theme about how much to initially verbalize), I've felt there was something missing; and here Ash has filled in the blank for me...


I think when I feel ____ [invalidated, angered, sad, etc.] because someone has said or done something, [depending on how invested I am] I do owe them, myself, and the relationship some sort of a verbal notice. But - unless they ask for a more thorough understanding, a brief statement to call their attention to It probably will suffice. Otherwise it *is* like beating them over the head with our feelings, thought patterns, history, etc. (...getting a visual here of my husband trying to disguise his boredom while I 'explain' my feelings/position "one more time"... )

I like the exercise of condensing my response to 3 lines.
Then, if the other person feels the need for better explanation, we'd do better to trust - and respect - that they'll ask. That way it's not just a Me communicating, it's an Us communicating, right?


~ jr

Most of the conversations referred to in this thread concern women who are trying to communicate to their male SOs, and how unsuccessful it is to communicate at length in order to achieve complete understanding. I don't think the "three line policy" is one that is followed on this board. I believe that this is because there is an implied agreement that people here are trying to reach understandings. I have to admit, though, that there have been posts on this board that were so long I couldn't even focus on them, let alone read through and understand them, which helps me understand how a long communication only increases confusion, rather than attaining clarity.

Not sure if this comment included me, Ann...

...but, fwiw, I understand and totally agree!


~ jr

I am thinking Ash that you are on track here. I think that if I try to explain to my H about the invalidation issue, I need to make it brief and concise, or else I'm afraid he'll fall asleep! I agree - men dont' want long drawn out explanations. They want you to shit or get off the pot (so to speak).

I guess I'm like that too. I have often found here on BPDR that people try to explain things to me in long drawn out explanations. I find my eyelids flickering and my brain just can't wrap around what they're trying to say. I'm sure they mean well, but I just can't absorb it all. And when I try to get them to write in more concise ways, they sometimes get frustrated with me and give up. Or else I give up because I just don't know what the heck they're trying to say. And then an argument sometimes ensues.

I guess different people process information in different ways. I need things to be spelled out in black-and-white. Bam, bam, bam. Others like to get embroiled in long elaborate discussions. But we must remember to respect each other, no matter what our communication styles are. I would think that certain people, after being here for so long, can usually tell how others like to communicate and impart information. Maybe we can all try to be cognizant of that. It would certainly help all of our relationships here.

JR, what I said wasn't specifically directed at you, it was what occurred to me while reading the whole thread. I was wondering in general about the contrast between talking about how communicating in 3 lines can be very effective, while on this board people rarely communicate that way. I wondered if that was because there's some implied agreement on this board that everyone is trying to understand each other, whereas in a relationship, we might assume there is that implied agreement, but as you said, unless the other person has actually expressed that interest, it might actually be unwelcome.

Ash'es post really did hit home with me.

I don't think I need to give explanations for WHY I made a mistake. I don't think I need to give my entire life history so someone can see why I do the things I do, or think the things I think. They don't need that information.

Especially the part on mind-melding.... I constantly seek melding, a blurring of the boundaries. I think I associated this process with love. If my bf will listen to me talk about my past for 3 hours and validate me that it sucked, that means he loves me. If he doesn't, he doesn't love me. Hmmm..... I sure have made his life difficult.

I think that's possibly why I tried to change my mother, so she would meld.

Can anyone find that melding chart?

Here's the diagram Ash was talking about.

Yay! Thanks, Trinity.

You're welcome!

i posted this, Ash, because in some way i am breaking away from you. you as a role model, as someone i took as i should change myself and keep you happy.

finally, in a way, doing this is a way i am also breaking away from my mom and my H and all the others who wanted me to be their clone. whether you respond or not is your choice.

it is a huge thing for me to do and by posting this thread i began it and did it.

i can disagree with you, its ok for me to do it, its ok you dont like me, and its ok i dont understand you.

that is one huge thing for me. obviously, i was still trying to get you to see who i am and to tell me its ok to be me and mean it also. i must let that go. i must and i will.

plus i voiced my opinion and didnt get in trouble. another huge thing.

thats why.

i will continue to try to condense things, but i need to learn to write it out and sometimes my stuff will be long. whoever doesnt like that, can choose to not read it. it wont be 17 pages. it never is.

in your view, Ash, my lengthy posts are not useful. in MY view, they are. i only ask for that respect.

so we fail in any understanding? so what? unless we use that to be disrespectful to the other, it doesnt matter.

the important thing, i can learn to not own it and not need to have understanding in order to feel ok about myself. i can learn your view of me is yours and doesnt affect me unless i let it.

i began this because you finally posted about why you have the condensed thing, and i never knew that before. suddenly it wasnt how wrong jody was, but about Ash. i found that very enlightening for myself.

big stuff.

Interesting, the idea of breaking away from someone as a role model. Role models can be a very good thing. But, we have to have the right role model. Someone who, in their example, helps us become who we are in a better way. Someone who is an example of particular traits to develop in ourselves, in being who we are. Which is different than trying to be what someone else is.


Jody, as far as posts to this board, I'm reminded of a recent discussion with you. (here) Where you explained something to me and I said you didn't need to explain to me. And, after you responded, I understood that it was for your own benefit, not mine.

That seems relevant to this discussion here. Sometimes, others don't need explanations. We accept what the other did or said with no explanation needed. On the other hand, sometimes we need to explain something for ourselves. It's certainly okay to do that. Especially in a forum such as this one. But good to know the difference too. To know that just because I need to talk something out doesn't mean someone else needs the explanation. And, I think, knowing who those people are to who we can share all our stuff, and with whom we should stick to explaining only what they want or need explained.

I've had discussions with bf since about getting my point made without giving a lot of unnecessary information. The benefits to me in doing this are:

1) A lot of time saved I can be thinking about or doing other things.
2) My thinking becomes more efficient and less ruminating, more focused on the things that matter in getting my goals achieved.
3) I think I will be a happier person.
4) In the long run, I will be seen as a more effective communicator, which is an asset.

I have asked him to point out to me when I am doing this, and it seems to happen most of the time, that I throw in information I don't need to. He is helping me to make my points using information most people will care about hearing. The rest can be for me.

The benefits for others:

1) Their time isn't wasted listening to a bunch of information they don't need.
2) They will probably enjoy being around me more.

I am doing this, not just for me (and in my pursuit of becoming a positive, healthy person), but for others.

I never said lengthy posts from you or anyone else were not useful. If you believe I have, please show me where I said or otherwise implied that.

I believe this thread was prompted by a comment I made to BG about her plans to write a long letter to her husband about how she felt and why she felt that way.

When we write lengthy posts or journal entries or whatever else, if they are helpful to us personally, then that's good.

If six people read the lengthy post and chime in on various points raised within the post, picking it apart, prompting more explanations and clarifications and dissection of meanings of words, that's where things go off-course and become less useful. We ALL get lost in the details and particulars brought up in the post-a-thons.

I have been known to post lengthy stuff (like now!) but some of the longer, introspection things (why I felt the way I did, the events that happened, etc.) generally go unanswered or responded to minimally because usually by the time I've written out all that was trapped in my head, I've been able to figure out the core essence of the issue that was bothering me. In that regard, there's little to pick apart or whatever.

I can see how writing lengthy posts (or journal entries) can be helpful for us personally. But as far as reading others' stuff, if they are too long I generally lose the train of thought of what the person is saying. If we have a question, we might just ask it. I know sometimes background info is important. But train-of-thought can get time-consuming to read. And I have seen it lead to people picking apart what you say, line-by-line, and thus the original topic gets off-track. There's a fine line to walk here.

If what you want is to get the therapeutic value from writing.. then write whatever you want. If, however, what you want is to get (or give) therapeutic value to readers, it's a good idea to consider what's effective writing. I tend to write way too much. Often when I go over a post draft, I can find the very same thing said two or three ways. I've seen that in other posters here as well and am certain many of us can skinny em down a good deal and improve understanding at the same time. Often, writing as I speak can be great and convenient for me as the writer, but I need to remember that it is also often uncomfortable and difficult to understand for the reader, resulting in failure to get my points across.

Readers have only so much time and interest. And the sad fact is that NOBODY appreciates our thoughts and writing nearly as much as we do.

It's my choice. And yours.

well ibf, im here to heal me , first and foremost. second comes trying to help others and send them love unconditionally and kindly while i try to help them. third, learning how to not own another's feelings who doesnt want to hear kind and caring.

so if sometimes my posts are lengthy and as you have said, i seem to be talking to myself, then yes, i am talking to myself and recovering in the process.

Ash, i did not keep all those pms you sent me. probably half were from the other board. i dont keep pms, for obvious reasons, and certainly not from months or last year. i know what was said, and that is all i need to know, really.

however, you specifically told me to shorten my stuff and you only wanted ..like...4 lines and no more. remember? to condense my thoughts and make it no longer than 4 lines (could have been 3 lines but i do think you said 4)/ this was way back when we used to try to have a coherent discussion, before we gave up and accepted it wasnt meant to be.

regardless, i am learning, and growing, and excited for myself in this huge step.

oh, ibf, i dont usually have a "expected" thing for replies. what is said to me is said, and usually i learn far more than i expected from the twists replies can take. i never post with expectations of "certain" replies. half the time i never have points or even know what they are. i admire others on here who are so concise and am learning tons from them every day.

i dont necessarily write for the readers, i write for myself and my issues unless im replying to someone, then its for them. as best as i can be verbal, anyways.

i am a visual learner. ie..writing or pictures. thus, hearing something is not easy for me to learn from. i need concrete things.

Like I said, Jody.. whatever floats your boat. But help me with this statement, please. And keep in mind here I'm not being critical, but going for understanding.

If you don't have points to make, or if you have some but don't know what they are and you have no expectations of readers, what are you trying to accomplish by posting thoughts like that?

heyas ibf, perfectly good question to ask.

because my mind is still so scattered and i still have big trouble going thru all the layers to figure out what i mean or feel or want, i try, only later to learn from others what my real point was and what i meant. which comes from their asking me to clarify something or what in the hell do you really mean, jody? type stuff.

i have behaved so long to keep another happy and gauge my stuff by them, i somehow lost the ability to know what i feel or think just off the top of my head. it had gotten to where what i** really meant or felt was way buried inside me.

i do obviously have a point, its just not always recognized by me for what it is. that is a work in progress i still have to do, and a long ways to go. it is not "typical" for me to know why i feel how i do or what i am taking on as mine, etc. my T did lots of work on this as she figured out i have no idea when i begin a thought what it is i really mean or am thinking. i still use others too much --rather than myself for that.

shit, did that make sense? let me know. see what i mean? and when im stressed to the max, i am worse with it. (as you can tell.) maybe this is what stoneglow meant about her trouble thinking and speaking also.

by expectations of readers, i mean this. i have seen others post they had certain expectations of others. ie...number of replies, people who would agree with them and didnt, stuff like that. i dont. i simply find a thought or idea i find interesting or useful, or need help with, and i stick it out there. 9 times out of 10, others find it the same and reply and my threads will go in fascinating, learn-filled ways. i always learn a lot. others do also, or so im told.

so i have no certain expectations other than im interested in what others views are and their opinions and if they think i see it all wrong.

does this help?