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A lot of times, things like this relate back to being heard. If we grew up in a household where we were treated as immaterial or invisible or worthless, we may have learned that our opinion was meaningless so as adults we seek to share our views and opinions with others just to be heard. In cases where our words are ill-received, being shunned is a validation of being heard. If they hadn't heard us, they wouldn't shun us.



Btw, what did you mean by "when does this ever happen"? When does someone ever catch on? When does someone ever feel good? Sorry, bit a blonde day today.

Makes total sense in my case.... I think this is probably true. I was definitely not considered. When I got about 20, I started cramming my opinions down my parent's throats, and throwing tantrums at them so they would shut up and listen. This is probably where this whole pattern started, because I felt as if all those years I wasn't heard, so I just started "forcing" people to listen. She still can't really "hear" me, but I would put her through phone conversations where she would just sit there and not get it. That also may be why I would always want my bf to listen for hours to my stories, thoughts, and feelings. I thought it had something to do with that green circle, but it may be some of both. Now that I've been heard by him and gotten feedback and understanding, it seems like I have calmed down a bit from constantly wanting to do this. I've also tried to stop doing it as often. I think this may be one reason why I chose him as a mate, because he had a lot of knowledge and understanding and feedback for me, and I think I valued that #1 at that time. Funny how these things happen.

Sometimes I come up with answers that don't quite fit, and then later find something that fits better, then kindof feel like I was being dumb. Oh well, all I can do is plow on, regardless of how ignorant I was before. (Such as, that I thought for awhile I was more rational/logical, only to find later that I was driven by emotion into a place where I had layers upon layers of walls).

Oh, I was talking about "when does someone ever catch on" lol. It was a joke with some truth behind it, coming from my pov.

Ash, I like that term "both-interest".

Sorry about that - I've turned off images from displaying so they don't look all obnoxious at work. (I've noticed an increase in large, bright images in threads and I don't think the world thinks I work constantly but I'd just as soon not advertise when I'm screwing off!) So anyway, all I saw was a link to "IMG" and I didn't click it at the time to see the laughing emoticon. My bad - sorry!

I was thinking no one probably got my joke.... not about you, but me, so no probs. My sarcastic jokes sometimes are mostly for me. I think it might be my way of venting, of expressing a feeling and thought. I think the process is: feel very frustrated about something, make joke about it, feel better.

My ex was very sarcastic in that way. I think I learned that process from him.

Oh, I'm seeing it could've meant any of those... hmmm. Sorry for not being more clear.

I hope this is ok to pull this up here, I think the original thread seems to have run its course a little.

I just wanted to share a little thought with you. What you said about sorting yourself first I think is in completely the right direction.

I don't know what the message is you are trying to convey (although I think I can deduce some from what you have written) I felt I had a pretty similar kind of message to convey once having come out of a womens refuge. I felt I wanted to tell everyone out there, that they didn't have to live x way, that they could do things differently and that things could change for them. I didn't have my stuff together yet either though.

I spent quite a while stuck, looking for people to hear me, validate my ideas and even perhaps to join me in them. I wasnt heard, I certainly couldn't get people to understand what I was trying to say. Cos my own life as it stood wasn't a great alternative.

So I began to concentrate on making all those dreams ideas I had for others come true for me. I am finally starting to get closer to what I envisaged for me regardless of whether I was supported or not. I met a fair bit of opposition at times esp from my family, and others that would say "keep dreaming" kinda comments. With some determination and at times some good old stubborn mindset that said I can do this for me. Finally I am starting to reap the rewards of my effort.

How does this benefit people others that might want to hear my message? Well anyone that says it can't be done I can say I know it can and I can and have demonstrated that it can! Meanwhile my life has been constantly moving in the direction I want it to go!

Thanks, Tracy, for sharing that with me. I needed that. And you're so right about everything you shared, as it compares to my own situation. Determination and mindset ftw.

I am working on it. I could just use a jumpstart in the motivation department. So many distractions.....I'm definitely working on it, it is just slow-going right now (and that's mostly my fault for allowing the distractions to occur).

When Tracy told me her story, I knew it was true, and I appreciated it. That means we see eye-to-eye. I think sometimes I try to show people things they aren't ready to see, or just don't want to do, as well. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." People can always think of a reason not to grow....or to do something that just isn't right for them.

Sometimes Aqua the struggle to get there seems worth it. To some it might almost feel impossible and sometimes what is known is more comfortable. Sometimes people would just rather accept things as they are. It's all a matter of choice.

If it feels right to you, then do it!

Again, you're right. I think the struggle is worth it, because without it, I am bored lol. I suppose I need to accept that not all people are like that, that they are content where they are.

I have to try to do things I haven't done before. It's just something that's there. Doesn't mean I do it quickly lol. (I always seem to be so hard on myself). I'm thinking it comes from insecurities. I think also I've gotten hard on myself because in the south, I was doing ok, here, I'm wayyyyyyy behind compared to others my age. But, regardless, all I can do is keep plowing ahead.

Well, I just think everything we do is in self interest, whether it be because it hurts to see an old woman struggling to cross the road alone, bc one day we might be her, or bc we have enough compassion for it to grip our guts with emotion. It's our sense of sympathy we're satisfying. We're kind to people bc we like to see people happy, and we like to think we can make people feel happy bc it makes us feel like positive influences in the world. It gives us a sense of control to produce good.

I see the point about criticising another through self interest can be damaging. That makes sense to me, but only if a criticism has benefit to yourself, but none to the person being criticised. However criticism through self interest can be a positive thing. Eg: I criticise my employee bc they are not producing for me. Pointing out their weakness may help them to be better at their work and therefore they will feel better about themselves. And this directly benefits me and my profit margins. If done kindly. The motivation for such a thing could come from a completely selfish origin, yet if done with compassion can be a win/win situation.

I think it's more complex than the statement you made about criticism through self interest. I think most things involving your own self-interest are ok, so long as they're tempered with a healthy dose of compassion. It is possible that those things that benefit us CAN benefit others too.

But I think when we do things for others that have nothing at all for us in them, we inevitably feel ripped off, sucked dry, like the energy vampire's been sucking on your neck. When you do something that you WANT to do for another (bc of self-interest) we RECEIVE as well as give, and that's what creates the synergistic balance.

Anybody ever read "Vernon God Little"? Vernon eventually figures out that the way to get your OWN needs met is to meet others' needs. People will be more willing to meet your needs if you satisfy theirs.



So in truth I don't think anything I do is completely altruistic. Yet I do things every day that are kind to others, and may on the surface appear to be altruistic. Letting someone into my lane in traffic on my way home, helping the woman with 3 toddlers and a pram down the stairs at the subway, giving my bf a massage, telling my friend she looks beautiful today...I get something out of all of these things.

I was wrestling with philosophies, grasping at thoughts, and twisting my brain trying to think on this while reading everyone's responses. Then Sarah wrote this:

Kind of put it in a succinct and palatable way for me.
Thank you, Sarah!


~ jr

I don't think it's possible for me to be completely altruistic. I'm in a situation where it might appear that I have absolutely no self-interest in what happens (and in fact I'm doing myself harm on some level by continuing) but in reality? My conscience won't let me end the situation. I'm doing it because I want to be able to sleep easy at night, not because I'm a selfless person.

It's too bad I didn't see this thread later, when I take philosophy in college. I believe altruism is one of the subjects that are dealt with.

My most repected spiritual teacher once said: "Even in the midst of selflessness, self is still there" That helped something in me relax!