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tracy, exactly what i need to do. thank you for putting it so simply.

i entitled it "angry". because it was about my anger, not the things i "thought" were behind it. you saw that! wow. sweet Roo saw it. what a gift yall have.

see, any explanation over the circumstances wont help. because my anger isnt from those. not really. its from something deeper and more intense. even owning or saying "im angry" was always so forbidden, just my doing it was scary and so hard. i was defensive from the git-go because of that.

this is something much deeper, which is why i have it coming up so much all the time. i wish i knew what. that would help! i dont yet. any emotion coming up over and over means it hasnt been dealt with and is cycling back up again. good points to those who have seen this happening.


now to more work.......how much i hate having this shit.

lets try this again. rewording............

why would this perceived* stuff cause me such anger? such hurt? such.....unfairness that i perceive*. ?

""""Would you spend three years trying to get your lawn mower to start each day, using exactly the same technique to yank that cord and no other from beginning to end?"""

sorry this is disjointed today. a picture of my thinking.

ibf, you said that. and you know what? your damn right! i have been doing that! for 50 umm mumble mumble years! good GOD. yes, i would and yes, i have!

then this..."""" It can color your entire life and self image. I had no idea in all that time that it's a matter of choosing to think in a way that causes hurt for myself and those I love. I had no idea it can also be fixed so that there is no longer any pain from the thought pattern.

What do you want to do with this? Reject the ideas and keep the pain, or do some work with the ideas and get rid of the pain and find a healthier thought pattern?""""

DAMN. i want to fix this! im sick of this thinking i have.

how did you get so bright and say exactly the right things? ty.

now to work on it.

Me too. We all have.
Great! When we see that it's the thinking patterns we choose and not the person we are that needs to be fixed, it becomes much easier to fix or change it. The tools are right here and all over the place elsewhere too. We don't need to agree with them. We don't need to like them. We just need to accept that they can help us become healthy. They can. And of course we need to put them to use. Daily. Hourly sometimes.

I think most, maybe all who replied saw that very thing. The fact that you saw it was a big deal. We all have and have had ineffective responses to thoughts, feelings, things we see that seem "unfair." The thought patterns and response patterns can look different. Some more severe than others. My T used to call it "shooting myself in the foot." So, when you get enough bullet holes in your foot that you can't stand up anymore and you're layin' there in the dirt, what ya gonna do?

Find new thought patterns in order to respond in ways that don't leave holes.

When the day comes that you know and can really accept and believe that statements like Trinity and Aqua made are made to help you and not to hurt you, (I'm absolutely certain of this) when you can use them as a gift instead of a threat - then you will know that you are very close to recovery, if not there already.

Good luck. Back to work.

One thought I forgot...
yep, yep, and hell yep. The thing I forgot to mention and that I think is really important is that I don't believe we need to know where it comes from before we fix it. I used to believe this as well... waiting for the discovery before I started on the fix... In fact, I believe that insisting on that sequence can make it more difficult and impossible to fix. What was surprising to me was that learning some alternative healthier thought patterns and practicing them and changing my thought patterns some is the very thing that brought about the discovery about why I had done it that way for 50+ years. The pressure was off somewhat. The reason no longer mattered as much. Then, the answer came sliding in as if out of nowhere.

Indeed, at the moment it came along, I wasn't even looking for it. It's not the same for everyone, but it worked that way for me.

ibf, i have been told that and indeed found it happening at times for me, when im not looking so hard it just comes up and the feelings (more likely the need for those feelings) just goes away.

so now i have a new thing to work at....another layer as it were. (im gonna need a bigger shovel)

thanks so much for the words and sharing your experiences. they are right on the mark, for sure.

i think i will be using that foot analogy a LOT. picturing the holes and laying in the dirt...very useful. as was the lawn mower, cause i see myself in that totally in some ways. shakes head*...so obvious yet i couldnt see it.....

Just a lil reminder for you. If I am allowed to quote you quoting someone else that is!

My favourite one is "Pray to God, but row towards shore"

Keep ya chin up! Keep rowing, you will get there!

The lawn mower thing came to mind coz you always talking about mowing the lawn.. and I ACTUALLY DID THAT VERY THING once in Alaska. Tried starting my ol' Snapper (aka "Smoky") every day for three weeks... turn it on this side... let the gas drain. turn it on the other side.. no idea why... put gas in the carb.. yank the crank... break the cord... fix the cord.. yank it again. and again. and again. Put it away till the next day. After three weeks of this, I got fed up and went and bought a new Honda. Some guy came to take the old Snapper, (free.. grrrr) checked the plug wire, tightened it down, and the freakin' thing started on the first pull.

Yeah, we do it all the time. That's how we got here in the first place.

pray to God but row to shore. !!! excellent. and so true. i mean, God gave ya the oars, right?

thanks Tracy

oh shit, ibf. argh! but funny...lol. i love to mow, altho i may bitch about it i feel so good after. unless i get too hot and come in and throw up. thats why i liked the mower analogy.

i dunno how i got here, i think i slept on the bus and stumbled at some stop that i didnt know about!

all i know is its hard work, painful as hell, and a long ass road (or yard) to work in.

yalls words help a lot. many thanks.

i still am trying to correlate all this, and i still havent a clue why this bothers me so much. i have a inkling its about feeling im criticized...and singled out...but from there its still a blank.

jody, I think it's awesome that ... a) you posted *your* feelings - whether or not anyone else might find it unreasonable or annoying, and... b) you've opened yourself up to tRying to hear messages of people who cared enough to respond have to say during the course of the thread. Good on YOU, woman!


See, I have a problem with being totally invisible. I'm ok with being in the background, mind you - but non-existent? That's my personal demon.

I was in my twenties when I was mingling with my parents' friends during an obligatory presence at one of their get-togethers. My stepdad's friend asked if I was the 'lawyer from California' daughter. I said with a forced smile, "No, I'm the artist from Maryland."
"Oh, you're the one who wrecked the Oldsmobile."
~ ~
That's just an isolated example.

It's followed me into my forties. Being 7 hours driving distance from my mom, I'm naturally the one who beat feet down there to be with her when my stepdad died suddenly. I've been happy to go down and stay a week or two when mom has recuperated from a couple surgeries she's had to undergo since then. She and I do have a certain sympatico, and I love her. Still, when I answer her phone and tell the caller I'm her daughter, I usually get "Oh, did you fly in from CA?"
"Um, no."
"Ohhh, you're the one with the aromatherapy business in Seattle?"
"Um, no. I'm the currently unemployed graphic designer, stay-at-home-mom who substitute teaches."

And don't even get me started on my dad.

[Not sure what, if anything, that little tirade of mine has to do with your topic, but it came up strong in me, so I thought I'd let it out.]


Going back to the onset of your topic...You've heard that it is not necessarily the case that no one else but you are corrected or 'told off'. (I've been chided by mods on occasion meself, so I know it's not true!)

Still it seems you might be having a hard time letting go of that pesky 'why ME?!?' thing.
So I am honestly and non-judgementally wondering... what do you think could be why "no one else is told about their ways of posting"/you're "the one told off in public much of the time"...


~ jr

hey jr. i liked the story you shared, please feel free to let it out when it seems to be needed. im not sure what it had to do with anything either, but i have no doubt it has something to do with something and was meant to be said. i hope it helped you to let it out.

i have thought on your statements all day but have no real answer yet. i just cant figure out the links and what it means to me. why it bugs me so much.

i have to keep working on it. i have counseling tomorrow, but its already full up with the problems i have with the T.

i need to delve deep on this mess and i just seem to hit a bottom every time. i cant link up the stuff.

why do i have this want for it all to be "fair"? why do i feel singled out? why does that even bother me? what does it mean or represent to me?

hell if i know. i dont usually draw such a bad blank as i am now.

i do know why i dont handle statements that come out as commands. that is obvious as to why. and how to deal better with them...is also obvious.

i also know why i dont like certain types of criticism. not criticism itself, but the way its worded. and in that, im not sure im totally wrong. i think there are ways to be usedful with it, and ways to not be useful with it. thats why i only have issues with certain people or certain phrasing.

but the fairness issue has got me stumped. maybe i feel...?....like i must the only one wrong here if i dont see others being called on things also. maybe i feel im the only one wrong, period. what does being wrong mean to me?

i do know i was taught to never be singled out. i dunno why but its a "bad thing". perhaps that is what is behind this. never make waves, never be noticed, never argue. and LOL well, that isnt me. me? the quiet mouse? ummmm, i think not. i might blow up if tried to be quiet!

so possibly this is the link. being taught, altho it is a blank again, i dont know what i was taught the consequences would be, but "good girls are always quiet and never open their mouths".

maybe being told things means something to me inside that i just dont recall. so i dont like them, even tho it makes no sense at all.

im thinking out loud here. sorry. my T put together this from bits and pieces of memory i have. my mom would lock herself up in her room (or end up in the hosp) if i disagreed with her or she was unhappy. to a child, this constitutes abandoning and death. abandoning means death to a child. thus, when i fucked up, i equated it to dying. the "thought" i would die. (her telling me my dad would kill us both wasnt helpful either)

do i still feel this even tho the places, times and words are all diff? this "lesson"? a possibility.

i wonder if anyone else here feels this or has any ideas on the correlation? ibf? jr you?

"you messed up" what does that mean to me? it means , to be honest, i dont deserve to live. why? no idea.

when i began first grade, my mom told me "do not misbehave because the teacher has more kids than you to tend to. she doesnt have time for you.". hmmmmmm. so if i misbehave, that must mean something...? with abusive spouses, it means getting the shit kicked out of ya. but im not really afraid of that. nor is it anything new. it isnt that. its something about being singled out....which i equate to not good.

jr, your demon is the opposite of mine. how interesting is that. wanna explore that with me? maybe we both can find the middle? i was taught to be non existent. feel free to post if you want on this.........

its so damn blank still. i dont usually find this to happen so it must something way deep and big deal.

That's your problem jody, not theirs. I had issues with you too for a long time. I worked through them. And now, nothing you can say or do makes me angry or phases me in the least, regardless of how I think about the way you act. I think that's the point you could get to with anyone here. Holding grudges is not healthy.

I tend to invest more in some people, like you ((Jody)), than I do others - usually bc, like you, I like them and can relate to some (or even many) of their issues. Also, I tend to invest (by posting/pm'g, etc.) to people with whom I have an established relationship, (also like we do).

If, at some point, that would come across as negative, it wouldn't be for lack of caring, ya know? Just the opposite in fact.

Not all who reply or post to you will have that in the forefront of their thoughts, unfortunately.

If someone does not choose to call a responder out on their inappropriate behavior, it may be precisely bc I, for e.g., do not have the energy or correct motivation to do it = not bc they are not behaving badly and you always are (which is not true). One may just suggest the use of the ignore button, instead.

Does that make sense? It's like, I, for e.g., may choose to pay that extra bit of attention and expend the necessary time and energy in and for you, whereas, I may not someone else, the idea being that you, to ME, may be more on my POSITIVE and CARING radar than might another, especially given limited energy, (when energy is down, etc.).

Of course, it may be that others have responded or a hundred other things, [so to anyone reading, just bc I don't reply doesn't mean this applies negatively to you or I don't care or whatever ...].

I'm probably not making my point very well, and I'm sure it DOES feel really bad to get criticized (and some of the things I've seen written toward you have been really awful and I've said so/intervened, etc.), so I can certainly understand how hurtful and angry you could be and I, too, applaud you for being honest with your feelings and saying so.

I guess I'm just trying to add that sometimes, it really is from true and consistently demonstrated caring, that you may get posted to, (for good stuff, too) = not necessarily bc of anything negative.

This is the longest post I've been up to writing in months I think, but I really did want to reaffirm that notion of being cared about and liked in general, and also as a possible reason, at least to be considered, for why some things may come your way that seem unequal.

I guess, looked at in the way I've just described it, the focus and attention is unequal, but may not necessarily be out of bad or ill intent, but may be, in fact, just the opposite.

My two cents - apede. :-)

Cross-posted with Aqualite.

Aqualite: May I suggest that you check your motivations for posting and continuing to post in this thread.

Given your relationship with Jody, and in light of the comments you are making, it does not seem to me that you are being consistent with the spirit if not the letter of the 'Rules of Engagement' regarding motivations when making replies, etc..

This thread, as I understand it, involves Jody's exploration of her feelings, (of anger, etc.). I would like to see that continue without the unwanted (as voiced by Jody) interjections by you.

Thank you.

Candle

candle! ((candle)) i wish i had half of your sweetness that is just part of you.

upon a lengthy email exchange with someone not from the board,. i have discovered PART of this.

all along my child (me,,as a child--this sticks with us with bpd into adulthood ) was taught never be singled out. its BAD. do your best to live in a hole with a trap door. (my way of hearing it). thus...number one, singled out is BAD. the other person said to them it meant they did something bad. i can take that a step further and say it means I'M bad. i didnt even know there could be other things behind it.

wow, lightbulb nite. how weird is my thinking!! dayum.

and number 2, when i show im bad (ie, called on it), i will be abandoned. dead. (who tells a 6 yr old to not be noticed in first grade as the teacher doesnt have time for her? to get attention from the teacher was a bad thing--at 6!)

now do not read this thinking i do not want to be called out again. i do. i need it. we all do. im not saying that. im saying this is a behavior/trait/something that comes out so strong that my inner child pops up and does her protection thing. and i do what i know to do, which is fight it. actually, im fighting to say hey please dont leave me, i dont think im bad, (more weird thinking). and do i honestly think i will be left? hell yes. can you see how many times i bring up leaving the board?

and yes, im owning totally i do this. i own and see its more weird ass twisted inner child stuff. but now i see it! i can work on it and eliminate the need for the inner child protection stuff. and it may take awhile...fair warning.

but sheesh, this is why i feel like i do. this bpd inner child shit is a bitch. unreal.

i appreciate yall hanging with me and letting me work this out. and im not done.........not yet. but i have some answers....i wish so bad the blanks werent there. careful what i wish for, eh? maybe them there isnt such a bad thing. i probably dont want to know what i saw and blanked out. do you know i typed that in present tense and had to go back and put past tense? sheeesh!

see, candle, i didnt know what you said. """"If, at some point, that would come across as negative, it wouldn't be for lack of caring, ya know? Just the opposite in fact."""" if i understood that as you meant it, i didnt know or understand that. half (at the very least) my brain runs with the shit it was taught as a child. and i dont know it, because its buried deep and doesnt come out as connected to a action or thought i have. hence, therapy. and more therapy. and post, and more posts. to connect all this shit and lose it.

i knew i "felt", i didnt like attention. esp negative, even the "good negative" like you or others. because i thought it was "normal" i didnt know it was twisted. to me, due to what i was taught and never untaught or unlearned, any attention was not good. and esp any kind of negative. my mom would RUN from negative attention. literally, lock herself away from it. now i know why she did that, and i am seeing why i and where i got these negative ideas.

some people will say why do all this, jody? just say it is negative and quit it. im just not made that way. im glad others are. i wish i was sometimes. it wasnt how i was taught by my best T and her methods worked and i stick with them. i totally believe in her inner child stuff, and i need that why answered to change it. so that is why i work the way i do. i think maybe everyone has a unique way of working and healing.

wow, this is very deep in me. it literally meant life or death to me. thru a very twisted path.

whew, lotta work happening. i feel steam out my ears. lol. ok, i also am about hyperventilating. oops.

""""but I really did want to reaffirm that notion of being cared about and liked in general, and also as a possible reason, at least to be considered, for why some things may come your way that seem unequal."""" candle, this would not have crossed my mind EVER. wow. ty for posting to me and saying that. it would never occur to me attention could be a good thing. or that sometimes the bad attention in the world wasnt my fault. or that people cared, and did things out of that.

""""I'm probably not making my point very well, and I'm sure it DOES feel really bad to get criticized (and some of the things I've seen written toward you have been really awful and I've said so/intervened, etc.), so I can certainly understand how hurtful and angry you could be and I, too, applaud you for being honest with your feelings and saying so""". candle, this brought tears to my eyes to read this. thank you. validation and also gently saying jody, your wrong. you made your point well. very well. i got it.

because i couldnt (ok, still cant most of the time) believe the good stuff said to me, yet owned the bad stuff said, it was my fault and doe is talking to me, i brought the forbidden, scary ATTENTION to myself from being bad....altho i wasnt being bad, i was wanting the attention maybe to prove somehow i wasnt that bad? oh damn, even i dont follow that well. but i bet its right, i bet i did it.

i need to let that sink in. big stuff.

you know, its ok to be talked to. to be helped from others pov. it didnt kill me. i didnt die. im here. no one left me.

quite a eye opener. very much so. im almost blinded cause this is one big issue for me. as ibf said, i have been doing this for years. trying to start that damn lawn mower.

((candle)) take care of you, ok? you are one special person in the world.

Misery loves company. But that's no need for you to act on your favoritism.

I may be way off base here Jody and I hope by saying this I don't confuse your own processes. But what I think I am hearing in your posts lately and in this one is.
Something along the lines of
As a child I was not allowed a voice. If I had a voice these things happened.

It sounds to me that feelings in your home were not tolerated. But rather they were judged and opinions were fed instead. Jody feels, reacts, then Jody will die (pretty strong message to be hearing) Not far off from fight/flight signals eh?

So I am hearing also that Jody voices something and it isn't met with approval Jody must therfore be wrong.

But the incongruence here is that Jody knows she is entitled to speak up and wishes to be heard.

I hear people saying to you on occassion. I could hear you much more clearly if you do.....

I wonder though if you don't hear instead don't speak, be quiet. Missing the parts that say if you did this instead I think I could hear what you are trying to say much easier.

So perhaps Jody it about finding that nice lil grey area that says people are not so much judging nor trying to slience me, rather they are trying to help me re parent myself, so that what I do say can be heard effectively. Something that I think I hear you saying you may not have been given the opportunity to learn as a child.

I read some of your thoughts on your childhood today and I was thinking about my kids. How sometimes when they get angry. I will remove myself. It seems a really good way of allowing a child to deal with anger without feeding into it, and it tends to allow it to dissipate. I was thinking then after how would it be if I never returned to confront my children on the issues that brought them to be angry, upset etc... all they would learn is that the anger is wrong, it is met with a turned back. They wouldn't learn that I will return and discuss it with them, nor that discussing things is a way of dealing with issues. How alien would it be to them later in life when the boss calls them into the office and said I want to talk to you about your performance in... I would like you to do .....instead. I find this much more effective.

Just my thoughts!

thanks for sharing them, tracy. i am really trying to process a lot of stuff that i learned here in this thread.

and im sure your right.....it really is a eye opener to learn how wrong my thinking is and how much better the world will be when i accept the other view you and others have shown me.

please keep sharing if you want, im listening intently.

how weird is something we learned as a child still affects us thru our lives unless we change it. i know you have found this to be true with some of your issues.....

i am trying to word my stuff better....it will be a work in progress tho!

you returning to discuss things with your kids is just so fantastic. a great parenting tool, i think.

i may be missing something.

this thread was begun for me by me to actually express my feelings, to own them, to see why and where they are from and to change that.

am i "asking for consequences"? do i need to be punished for some reason?

i dont get it. isnt the whole point to heal to learn feelings are ok and just are and to learn how to act on them in a healthy manner?

i dont see where i asked for "consequences". or should be punished in some way for this.

there is only good consequences to come from this thread. and im learning them, i even...get this! dreamed i told my mom good bye last night. huge step.

Jody, u sure are trying to sort all this out. I see that you are doing some hard work and I think that's great!

Good for you!

(((Roo)))

heya ((Roo)) your kind words always help me feel better.

what i have to figure out is to be autonomous. i cant spell it! shit. i should look it up. ok.."""au�ton�o�mous �� (�-tn-ms) KEY �

ADJECTIVE:

Not controlled by others or by outside forces; independent: an autonomous judiciary; an autonomous division of a corporate conglomerate.
Independent in mind or judgment; self-directed. """""


basically, on my own. do for me, forget caring about others and how they see me, and owning their views. and that is so hard for me. shit.

one thing i have thought of is to ask for reasoning. if they have none, or wont share it, i will disregard what they stated. my mom used to try it, and wouldnt give reasons. my H is also like that. so im gonna change it to include everyone and see how it works. i find someone who can back up their beliefs/views or ideas--- usually has good ones, and they make sense. ones who dont, usually cant, and can be disregarded.

i still find myself owning anothers emotions. argh! damn it.

how are you doing? feeling ok? thanks for posting and caring.