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There's a range of what dissociation is. Yeah, it can happen without time loss. I don't know if that would be DID or DD-NOS (dissociative disorder not otherwise specialized), nor what other things might cause it (I guess a big thing that separates professionals from us is they know about various different disorders . I do recall reading, though, that some people have dissociation parts that influence but don't take over.

(I didn't want to post an answer in Minx's thread, since this reply doesn't relate to her discussion.)

this is just my own opinion, i dont know if it would be possible to have DID and not lose time. from my understanding, when another personality takes over, many times the person doesnt know it happened or what the others do.

im sure anything is possible, but i would think it might be rare to never lose time.

Hi Ellen,

Perhaps I should have posted my own thread, it just really looked to me like Minx's thread had become a discussion of DID in general. My apologies.

Thank you so much for pulling out my question and reposting it... and for your answer!

Jody,

I gather in some cases alters are co-conscious, so they know what is going on even when they are not 'out'. In cases like that, there would be no time loss. And I wonder if there are other scenarios that would overcome the time loss factor, as well. Or if it is possible that someone might just find the time loss is not that noticeable.

Yeah, one of the things I was thinking was some folks might not particularly notice the time loss. I hadn't thought about the co-conscious issue, but that makes sense too.

i have read some alters are co concious. i just cant imagine how that works and would be interested to hear from someone who does that just how it feels.

i cant get the concept. when one would know they are there and another is?

my understanding, correct me if im wrong please! is alters are created by the child to cope or deal with things so horrendous the child conciously cant handle it. they "split".

how sad must all this be to have to live with. how terribly hard to fight to integrate it all.

I think one alter just hangs back and observes what's going on while the other is out. Also, some alters may communicate and relay events to each other, I believe.

I think your understanding of why alters are created is correct, Jody.

Dissociation is on a continuum, from the mild "highway hypnosis" type to full blown amnesia found in DID. Dissociation can occur on many levels. One can split of conscious memory, emotional or physical aspects of memory (emotional and physical numbing is a biophysical response to severe trauma found in people who have PTSD or its chronic version, DESNOS or Complex PTSD.)

I have voices in my head (thoughts that don't seem to belong to me.) I have emotional and physical reactions that don't seem to be appropriate or belong to me and my current situation, and I'm not diagnosed with DID. These phenomena are better accounted for as the intrusive re-experiencing aspect of PTSD, triggered into my awareness by things in the present that remind me of the past. I have been known to lose time under extreme stress (have been told what I did/said, but have no conscious memory of it), but rarely; and only for a short time period; but I did used to "space out" frequently.

Co-consciousness for me was like having conflict in my head. 2 or more opposing thoughts in response to the same situation, that ended up in battle, and whichever was strongest won. I myself used to feel like "piggy in the middle" caught amidst the war and was too weak to take control of it. Doesn't happen so much these days after years of therapy. I've learned to listen to all the opposing thoughts, stay in control and find a solution agreeable to my whole self.

My understanding is "parts of self" can be created to handle different situations for example: 1 might be highly sexual and do all things related to sex, another might hold the memory of "a specific trauma." In my case, most of the dissociation occured on an emotional level and parts of self were created that have different feelings. I myself became an emotionally detached, numb, robot-like, adult. My feelings being alien and abhorrent to me. Have done much work to integrate these emotional parts of self.

If you scroll halfway down the page in the following article, you'll see a table that describes Structural Dissociation of the Personality: http://www.trauma-pages.com/a/nijenhuis-2004.php I fall into the DESNOS/Complex PTSD category. ALthough I am technically more integrated now and probably don't fit the criteria anymore.

Hope some of this is helpful to you.

amanda, i found that link to be almost impossible for me to understand. is there any a bit more "in english" maybe? im sure since im also CPTSD like you, i fall into a lot of the categories also. i have "lost time" for instance. the more stressed i get, the more it will happen. i dont lay down short term memory.

im talking about something different here, tho.

when i say DID, i most likely mean MPD. where people are actually diff personalities, with everything about each different. ages, handwriting, clothing, speech, hairdos. etc.

i dont mean like dissociating, this may be a thing of semantics..im not sure...

i too have done work to integrate my inner child into my adult. but this isnt what i refer to when i talk about DID.

am i making sense? im not sure i am..........

Jody,

MPD and DID are the same thing. They just changed the name; DID is the current term that is used.

Amanda,

Thank you so much for that link! It is very dense writing, but, I'm sure after I wade through it, I will find much insight there. It has been very difficult for me to find much good info on DID online and I do so appreciate professionally written and in-depth information.

I read the Developmental Perspective of Dissociation and it is so good to get a concise explanation of how infants develop integrative capacities in their brains as they mature. So good to have a better understanding of how the brain develops.

By the way, I'm here to gain a better understanding of my ex bf's behavior. (Which you can get a better idea of if you read my last post in Minx's thread about DID) He was an extremely split individual and, at times, I suspected his problem was more DID than simple BPD. Thank you so much for giving me so much material to explore. And thank you also so much for your own personal insight.

-B

I get thoughts that don't seem to belong to me too. I'm never quite sure whether to call them voices or not, as I think them, rather than hear them... they're not hallucinations, but I don't seem to have any control over them. I never realised they could be a symptom of dissociation! It makes sense.

What I've found is if I acknowledge them but don't pay too much attention to them, they don't bother me much. More recently, I've come to realise that I get certain "voices" in certain situations. For example, the voice reminding me that I tried to kill myself always pops up when I've been invalidating myself or ignoring the way I feel. I've come to recognise it as a plea to take my emotional state seriously. When I deal with what caused the voice, the voice goes away.

Perhaps I sound crazy now... but the fact that I get these "voices" is no longer a problem to me. I've always wondered if "normal" people get them too and it's just not talked about!

I am someone who has co-conscious alters. What happens, at moments of great emotional stress, like accessing the most troubling parts of my childhood, is something like this:

First I experience a strange sensation in my brain, like it is twisting in my head. Then my vision goes screwy, my eyes get very hard to keep open, but not in a sleepy way, they screw up shut really tight.
Then I have a sense of my body changing, feeling like that of a child, my posture changes involuntarily. My speech becomes different, if that is, it is an alter who can speak. At least one is mute. My thoughts become 'not mine' and I am usually very unsure what I am doing wherever I am.

My alters are several ages and both genders. Each of them seems to be charged with holding a particular emotion. The three year-old is ashamed and unbearably lonely. I have 15 year-old twins, who hold my anger in different ways. The boy is always on guard, ready for a fight. The girl is turned inward and wants only to hurt me/herself. (I am trying not to feel like a total freak as I share this) There is also a delightful 8-year old who laughs a lot and is very playful. And so on...

Meanwhile, the me I usually know myself as, is pushed into the background watching all of this, and quite terrified. These are the most out of control experiences I have ever had. In order to pull 'myself' back into the foreground, I generally put the other alter to sleep somehow.

I have a hard time in therapy, because I generally try to avoid lettting this happen. I can sense the beginnings, and I usually do every possible grounding thing to not lose control. This generally means disconnecting from whatever I was trying to process, so things come to a halt until I establish new line of thought / feeling.

I might also add that there is very little awareness of co-consciousness out there, even among professionals. I have been assesed for DID and have been told I do not meet the criteria for that diagnosis, which is fine as I don't really need anymore diagnoses hanging around my neck. The difficulty is then being offered no alternative explanation or help for these experiences. Some psychiatrists have been unwilling to even hear me out on the existence of these alters and my experience of their emergence, once I say that I do not lose time. That is very discouraging and invalidating.

One therapist just kept trying to reassure me that "we all have different ego states and parts of ourselves." She could not hear what I was trying to tell her, but that is not surprising I guess, for someone who has never had such an experience. Needless to say I was careful never to allow a transition in her presence, so not much got done there. I have yet to talk with my current therapist about this, as I am still building trust with her. I have a great fear of being seen as "making things up" or just "acting like a baby." Outside of a place like this, I have never told anyone other than professionals about these experiences.

It is for me hard to describe all of this any better than that. Hope it helps.

wow, how interesting, how awful this must feel! im so impressed at your courage in sharing. stunned, really.

i do not think its fragmented ego states or what i refer to as integrating a inner child. i believe these are diff "people" in one body, created by the mind to cope with horrendous things.

keep working on you. i wish i knew what else to say so it would come out how i mean it. ((northof49)) i really hope you find a good dr or T. you might search if this T doesnt work out and see who in your area is available. it took us 8 months to find my daughters pdr. and he is a 3 hour drive and a few 100's of dollars away every 2 weeks. we do what we have to, ya know?

i send you such good wishes and hopes and courage.

I think that it's two different ways to say the same thing.

lost my post.

speaking for me, i dont mean or think they are the same thing.

could they be differing extremes of the same thing? one more severe than the other?

North,

It sounds as if you are in a very lonely position. The mental health profession has a long way to go, I think in understanding how the brain works and matures. I'm sorry you are finding it so difficult to find appropriate help.

Please don't feel like a 'freak'. I think many, many people who were in your shoes would have developed the same way, the same 'mechanisms'. It allowed you to survive... God knows what trauma. And early trauma does effect the development of the brain's integrative capacities. I'm just trying to say, *I imagine you are Normal as hell given the circumstances you were dealt.* Please don't apologize... I know you must have great courage and resiliency.

Yes, it must be frightening to feel you have no control. I hope you find support here from others who share this experience. And I really, really appreciate your sharing your story with me.

My very best to you.

Betty Sue

Jody,

I think she is saying that an alter *is* a split off (or dissociated) ego state...

well, i wonder if DID is the extreme end of this stae caused by trauma,,,

i also believe this happens in childhood, not adults? am i correct? adults dont become or have DID suddenly?

to put it in my words, so i understand it, people split off to other persons to cope and deal? i dont know enough to say "ego states" and would have to ask a professional on that one.

it is much more difficult to integrate this than just like what i have been doing with my cptsd, inner child and adult.

i fear this is getting too deep for me............i cant follow it.

There can't be two bodies in one body. There can't literally be multiple persons in one body, because that would be two bodies in one body. (Well, maybe in some con-joined twins cases it might be possible. But that's a different topic) Not unless we are thinking of the religious idea of a soul, and suggesting two souls in one body. But, without evoking the idea of a soul, the metaphorical description of multiple people would be the same as the psychological description mutliple ego states. I can't see how they would be any different.

I can't imagine you are understand people differently than me (unless you are thinking of the idea of multiple souls), so I wonder if maybe you are thinking of "ego states" differently than I'm understanding it, in this context.

My ex related a story to me once that I wonder if anyone here might have some insight into...

He had had a melt-down and gone into a rage - and this was in front of a lot of people... a group of his friends, and in public. He was very upset about the way he had behaved, his closest friend had stopped speaking to him because of it.

He said what happened was that "the color blue" was flashing in his brain and telling him, somehow, to say these things. (And, yes, he was well aware of how odd this sounded.)

I thought it was some sort of flashback and told him so, but I don't know if I was correct in thinking that.

I just wondered if anyone here might comment... if this rings any bells... or if you have a better grasp of what might actually have been happening. I know it is just conjecture, but I would like to hear your thoughts.

-B

P.S.: Sorry to jump in here. You both posted as I was writing this, but I don't want to lose what I've written.

Jody,

DID begins in childhood. No, it does not just come on suddenly in adulthood, but I think it could go unrecognized until adulthood. And I think the person who has it could just assume everyone is the way they are... they could be unaware they are different.

And, yes, alters come into existence as a coping strategy... for things that are too much to stand.

-B

i so identify with we or i or anyone wouldnt know something is wrong.

hell, i thought everyones dads took em to bars and stalked em and had loaded guns! i still have trouble knowing what is wrong or right and what is abuse and what isnt.

it must be a terrible thing to live with, and my heart goes out to anyone with DID.

ellen, yes i have no idea what ego states are. i appreciate you explaining it to me when you have the time.

i do think, in my own way, this type stuff, the kids created different personalities to cope. of course they come from the same brain and soul, but to the person having it they are different people entirely.

and just to integrate my inner child to my adult is hard enough, i cant imagine this!

however, my inner child is me. not a different personality, just a "being" who comes up to protect me. me as i was as a child.

shit, i dont think i can make sense in type of what i mean. am i ?

betty sue, hell girl,,,jump away in here! its all good!

Well, ego states is not something I can explain beyond what I already said. That's the best I can do to convey my understanding of what it means.

As far as I understand it, The mind is a curiously flexible and adaptable thing. I don't know about you guys, but I can take on different roles depending on the circumstances. Like, there's "Professional Me" who dresses up and goes to the office every day. There's "Social Me" when I get around a bunch of friends. There's "Helpful Me" who takes care of my neighbors. There's "Angry Me" when I get pissed off. Those are Ego States.

I guess most people have ego states, because most people use different traits in different circumstances. And for most people, they flow from one to another without any break or gap because they're all integrated into the whole ME. I do know that my unstable sense of self makes me more aware of the changes between persona, and I can sometimes feel like I'm a different person depending on what I'm doing. But I'm still aware that it's all me, just different facets of me. As I understand it, the dissociative continuum goes even further. Those same type of ego states can take on a "life" of their own, becoming disconnected from each other, so that the person actually does take on different personas. Finally, the ego states develop into separate states of consciousness and lose nearly all connection. Where a "normal" person would just shift into "work mode", the person with DID will actually change identities. "Going to Work Guy" will come front and "Weekend Dude" will shut down.

That's really oversimplified and it doesn't touch at all on the trauma that creates such isolated fragments, but it's my basic understanding of how it works. Since the abuse happens when they are a child, child alters are common. Some part of the mind split off on it's own so that the victim could be "spared" the full knowledge of the abuse. Other common alters (that I'm aware of) are Protector (the splinter that is going to make sure it never happens again) and Persecutor (a fragment that identifies with the abuser instead of the victim). Some splinters develop into pretty "fleshed out" identities and others may have been broken out just to handle certain situations (like sex or housework).

What little I understand about inner child stuff suggest to me that it's a loosely related thing. Some part of the mind, thought and belief system has remained childlike, and as we grow up, we become separated from it a little. It's not an actual Identity, but it IS a fragment of the mind that isn't in step with the rest. But I don't know all that much about that...

Jody,

Let's just say an alter is a split off (dissociated) part of the personality... Split off and not recognized as a part of oneself... it is entirely dissociated.

So, I'm saying 'ego-state' and 'a part of the personality' are the same thing. Maybe not completely accurate, but that is how I was using the term.

It seems to be the dissociation you don't understand. This disorder begins in childhood or infancy when the brain is not fully matured... thinking is more compartmentalized... imagination is much stronger... the big picture is not so easy to grasp... events are not strung together in the same way. Sorry, I'm very fuzzy on this myself. Basically, the brain works differently in childhood... and it's development is impacted by trauma. Trauma may cause the brain to mature differently.

-B

( Cross posting again.)

Minx, great description.