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 Post subject: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:39 am 
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i just wonder about this. i have worked on why i cant get to RA about something, and its because its against my own personal beliefs.

so maybe its not possible without giving up something in me that i treasure and im not willing to do that.

must be why i cant get there.

i just think some things maybe we shouldnt get to with this. not if it goes against what we believe.

so maybe i need to radically accept i cant radically accept something when its against my beliefs yet accept it IS reality.

any thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:04 pm 
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I don't think we have to give up our own beliefs necessarily to Radically Accept anything. Remember, radically accepting something is not judging it--it just is. We don't have to agree with it to accept it.

It helps me to try to understand whatever I am trying to accept from the point of view of another who sees the situation differently than I do. Like, putting myself in their shoes. If I can come to understand why they feel the way they do about whatever, it's just easier for me to accept something as it IS.

But no, I don't think you have to do either/or. Accepting does not mean judging in any way, to me. Even if something is against your personal beliefs, that doesn't mean it can't exist. Many things that I don't believe in are a reality, lol. Radically Accepting is just knowing the reality of the situation through and through, IMO, and finding a way to move forward from there. The reason I try to RA is to move forward, to just acknowledge the reality even if I don't agree and find a way through.

I suppose for me, when I am faced with that, I have to decide if I really want to move forward enough about the issue that I are willing to accept the reality of it, whether I agree with that reality or not. Acknowledgment to me does not denote agreement.

That's one reason it's called 'radical' acceptance, not just acceptance. It takes 'unusual' or a 'departure from the norm' to be able to fully accept some things. To listen to what our bodies tell us we feel, how we hold tension when we think of the subject--and let it all go without prejudiced against the subject matter--that's radically accepting in my mind.....

Good luck, Jody, I wish you well in this. It's tough, but you can do this too.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:35 pm 
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some good thoughts to ponder. thank you, H.

somehow accepting equals ....its ok....and i just havent gotten past that yet.

dunno...have to think on it. do i want to RA it which might mean i would no longer fight against it? stand up against it?

i dunno ....it would be easier ON me, but do i want that?

someone has to fight against this stuff....or it will take over. the age old stuff....the world has always fought.

damn H i have tried seeing it from their point of view. i just cant accept it.

oh, i know it exists. i just cant accept its OK.

i think its...do i want to accept i should not try to change it? cause i accept it IS.

and the answer so far is no, to not try to change it would be against my morals and beliefs.

so the question might be how to best go about trying to change it? the age old fight.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:51 pm 
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thinking....

altho i cant change another, maybe some have to accept i wont give up my fight against injustice in the world and there is some like me in every generation who wont bow down (which it feels like) and allow it.

story here...to help you see what i mean.

i was talking in a chat room once. a guy was talking about molesting a little girl and i went off at him. to my surprise, most of the room sided with him. "dont make waves" so this one "friend" was like.."if he was in MY neighborhood.." i said you dont get it. this IS your neighborhood. if you dont stand up for this, if someone doesnt, next time it might be your grandkid and you look around wondering why?" because no one stood against it/

so thats kinda how i am. i just need to find the right WAY to stand up. and others just need to know i will never back down to allow things without speaking up in some form.

but man, how others hate that. speak up? how dare you? ignore it...let it go on...and i just can not do that. God forbid you say anything!

that is so weird. so im not sure WHAT i have to RA exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:19 pm 
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I would start by accepting ...

... other people are different from me.

... other people see things differently than I do.

... other people are allowed to hold different beliefs from me.

I can fight against sick actions while accepting that such sick actions exist.

I can fight against illegal activity while accepting that I may never understand why others are compelled to engage in those activities.

I can accept that there are sickos in the world, just as there are apathetic people and groups that don't want to make waves, without having give up who I am. They can be them and I can still be me.

Accepting that the grass is green doesn't make ME green.

Acceptance doesn't mean giving anything up. If there's some sort of equation in which acceptance means giving up something (anything - inconsequential or wholly sacred), there's something twisted in the thinking.

Acceptance, in the RA realm, means acknowledgement, not acquiescence.

Accept = to regard as inevitable
Acknowledge = to recognize as genuine (real, to you or to them)
Acquiesce = to comply, give in, submit

We do give in and submit to these things insofar as "yes, I give up my claim on forcing my will onto you, you are allowed to have your own ideas, I give in."

For as heinous as child molestation may be to one person, someone else's shock, outrage and beligerance may be just as perplexing.

I accept that what comes out of the kitchen faucet is water. I might be inherently opposed to water and be outraged that not everyone else is pissed that water is coming out of the faucet instead of Cherry Kool-Aid but Radical Acceptance is saying "okay, so water's coming out of there. If I want Cherry Kool-Aid, I have to get it somewhere else or I can start a petition to get the city to change what's pumped through the lines or I can ask the cops to arrest the water meter reader. But whatever action I choose to do moving forward, it is still water right now. Wishing, screaming, praying, crying, yelling, hoping and dreaming won't change that water into Cherry Kool-Aid."

I wish the ocean wasn't salty. I love to swim and there are great things to see when snorkeling in Hawaii. I hate getting a snootful of salt water when I least expect it. I hate having crunchy hair after getting out of salt water. It would be so much better if it were freshwater or, better yet, chlorinated pool water. That would be much more enjoyable and tolerable.

However, I accept that the ocean is saltwater. Those beautiful things I see in the ocean are sustained by that saltwater. I can use freshwater to rinse the salty crunchiness from my hair. The salty ocean water helps buoyancy while snorkeling.

I don't have to like the fact that the ocean is filled with saltwater but accepting that it is now [and will always be saltwater - something over which I have no control] allows me to move on from that grudge and move into an area where I can explore my options, make rational decisions for myself and work around the things I don't like. (I did get a snorkel with a float at the top which blocks out salty ocean water from flooding down the snorkel in a big wave or when diving.) Radical acceptance moves me out of anger and blame and denial and into a healthy realm of activity and personal responsibility. I give up NOTHING of myself by accepting that the ocean is saltwater, city water comes from the kitchen faucet and that some people are child molesters. All of those things are inevitable. What's not inevitable - what I do have control over - is how I react and respond to those things.

Getting pissed is all well and good but not very productive or healthy.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:01 am 
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hmm still thinking on this.

of course i know something exists. ! if i thought it didnt exist, i wouldnt care or not.

somehow accepting that to me also means i should accept it as ok . maybe that is where im stuck. im not sure where i got that idea..but obviously its where im stuck.

hmmmmm. i could accept and yet still argue against it and take a stand in the world? interesting .....

i didnt get the part about it only means accepting it exists. it read to me about accepting IT as ok to do.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:06 am 
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is there a place on here that defines it? i dont think i have ever read a real definition of this phrase........

i read the top thread, but the links to "read full article" dont work and the language was a bit....to say the least..confusing. esp when one cant finish the whole deal. it lost me.

anyone? a easier definition?

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:33 am 
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This might not be 'easier' but it is a more thorough definition as well as the steps one goes through in order to come to a place of RA. I don't know if you are willing to read it all, but I like it. Here is the link, from a DBT self-help website.

This link might be even better. I like it, the way it's formatted.

Hope that helps! I'd try the second link first if I were you, I feel like it's a bit more user-friendly. :D

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:31 am 
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Yes, I agree with all. Accepting is not saying it is okay or not. It is just accepting what is. For instance, I hate snow. I hate driving in it and walking in it. But it is there. I accept it. I cannot change it. I may not like it, but I accept it exists. There is no judgment, just realizing it is what it is.

Now there are some things you can work to change. For example, you know I work for gay rights. I accept that there are homophobes in the world. I don't like it, but I accept they are out there. Yes, I can work to change them. But I always have to be cognizant that they exist.

Some things we can change and others we can't. Obviously, I can't change the fact that it snows. However, I can move to a warmer climate where it doesn't snow. But I still accept that the snow exists - I may not like it, but I accept it.

As the others have said, Radically Accepting something is not the same as saying we agree with it. Once you Radically Accept something, it is easier to move on. You're not fighting it. I was very upset 2 years ago when I had that upset with my ex-friend. It took me a long time to Radically Accept that we were no longer friends. Now I am at peace with it. It makes my life a lot easier.

Radically Accepting something does not mean that we can't choose to change something. Sure, you hate child molestors. You want to see justice. But before you can work to do something about it, you have to Radically Accept that they exist. Radically Accepting does not equal liking something - it just means you accept it exists. No judgments there. Then you can move on to fix or change things.

When my baby died, I was devastated. I wanted to change things - I wanted to turn the clock back. I was a mess. But once I Radically Accepted what had happened, then I was able to move forward to try to conceive again. Sure, I hated what had happened. But I had to accept what happened. Otherwise, how could I get pregnant again?

As someone else said here, it is not an either/or. You don't have to like something to Radically Accept it. You just need to be aware that it exists. I hope this helps!

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:31 am 
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Thanks for letting us know some of the links are broken, Jody. We'll fix that. If anyone come across links that don't work anymore, please let us know by emailing board@bpdrecovery.com

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:37 am 
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Hi Jody

Thanks for raising this and then being specific. I'm new to the concept of RA so this thread has been really helpful. Thank you Ash for the clarity you brought to the definition of acceptance when used in the context of RA. And thank you Harmonium for the links, I'm gonna go check them out to help me understand RA better.

Gosh I'm sooooooooooo grateful for this forum.


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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:05 am 
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jodyisme wrote:
hmmmmm. i could accept and yet still argue against it and take a stand in the world? interesting .....


How I understand it is, radical acceptance means we don't try to change the present. But we can try to make the future different. Or just have our voice and say I disagree.

Say someone calls me a nasty name. I can't change that. It's happened. I can hold the viewpoint that what the person did was wrong. I can speak out and say, hey, that was wrong. I can choose to avoid the person in the future. All that is compatible with radical acceptance. What I can't do, when practicing radical acceptance, is keep wishing for him to have not called me that nasty name.

An example of an ongoing thing, which more illustrates we can't change the present... say I like to go out to bars, but don't like the smoke. Radical acceptance means accepting that, right now, smoking is allowed. But it doesn't mean I can't go fighting for a change in the law.

And we can speak out with or without radical acceptance, but I think how it comes out is different. With radical acceptance, we aren't bitching and moaning, but simply sharing our viewpoint, while, as appropriate, working for change.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:25 am 
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ellen, i like your ideas...

thanks for the links..H.

thanks for sharing, BG.

some of this im not sure of. im not sure what they mean about not fighting it...i dont know if it means what i mean or not. fighting what exactly? i know it exists. but if i dont fight it, then i allow it to happen again. (say abuse or child molesting etc)

its confusing.

i have no problem accepting it IS. i have a problem accepting it WILL BE. i just dont think i get it yet.

one part says its ok to fight it. one part says it isnt. i dont know what they mean....

dont fight it exists? or dont fight to change it? i cant tell what the articles mean. i dont like calmly saying it exists so just let it. i understand saying it exists but i dont have to be silent about it.

yeah, i know im stupid.

hi CG. nice to meet you. feel free to share anything you would like. i still dont get it. lol.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:30 pm 
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Gosh, you're not stupid! Don't say that!!!! Sometimes these abstract concepts are hard to grasp. I have more trouble than most with abstract concepts.

Okay - there are some things you can't fight that exist or that happened. Of course you can work to change things. So let's say you don't like child molestation. You know it exists. You all-of-a-sudden can't snap your fingers and poof - it's gone. You have to radically accept that it's out there. But yes, you can work to make things better for people. You don't have to be silent about it.

Some things we need to radically accept are things that we can not change. Like things that have happened in the past. I can't change the fact that I lost a baby. I can't change the fact that I lost a job I liked. It happened. It's over. But I can change how I REACT to those situations. By radically accepting them, I acknowledge they happened. I acknowledge I don't like that they happened. When I lost my baby, I cried and cried and wished it had been different. I was miserable. But once I accepted the reality, I was able to move on and get pregnant again. I could not change what had happened, but I could accept it and move on.

So there are different instances in using Radical Acceptance. It seems to me you're talking about situations where we can change things. Again, yes, we can do that. But in order to make those changes, we have to radically accept that they exist in the first place.

Does this make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Someone told me once that radical acceptance was simply acknowledging that the situation is what it is, and while that acknowledgment doesnt equal liking it, or being ok with it. Perhaps it should have been called radical acknowledgment.

A situation that I encountered recently. I had taken the photos of my nephews 4th birthday and rather than email everyone with a massive email of photos I decided to upload them to photo bucket and email the link around. About 3 weeks after that I got a really snippy email from my bro in law "is this site safte, what about the pedopiles etc" no "Hey thanks for putting up the photos however I'm concerned about the safety of the photos". Bear in mind the only way someone could have found the photos was to google my rather obscure user name

Radical acceptance allowed me to go "I think hes being a complete prick" however this is the situation, and while I dont have to like it, or accept it, I do have a choice in how I respond. RA gave me that breathing room to choose how to react, and to choose a more positive course of action.


I think Ash nailed it quite well.


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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:49 pm 
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Arrk, I forgot I couldnt edit posts.

Wanted to add, RA can take some time to get your head around so dont be too hard on yourself.

If its against your beliefs, RA doesnt mean you have to accept it, like it, or be ok with it, however it is what is it, and then the choice is, how do I respond to this in a way thats going to leave me feeling ok or do I use my familiar coping strategies, and chances are end up feeling rubbish because of how I dealt with it.

Dont be too hard on yourself though.


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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:05 pm 
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damn bullshit fucking sql errors, there went that post. the board is back erroring a ton again...unstable for some reason.

thanks BG and wizeone. i got it now. i appreciate you explaining so patiently to me.

i forgot the rest of what i said...

"""then the choice is, how do I respond to this in a way thats going to leave me feeling ok or do I use my familiar coping strategies, and chances are end up feeling rubbish because of how I dealt with it. """ great words...

funny i already used RA on something and didnt know it...lol...seriously accepted a situation "this is how it is gonna be--now what do i do?" i chose to back off and quit trying..me the original never-stop-trying- person. so you KNOW it was a bad situation. but cool. i already did it..:)

now on to the other 100,000 or so things...lol...right.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:17 am 
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jodyisme wrote:
damn bullshit fucking sql errors, there went that post. the board is back erroring a ton again...unstable for some reason.

thanks BG and wizeone. i got it now. i appreciate you explaining so patiently to me.

i forgot the rest of what i said...

"""then the choice is, how do I respond to this in a way thats going to leave me feeling ok or do I use my familiar coping strategies, and chances are end up feeling rubbish because of how I dealt with it. """ great words...

funny i already used RA on something and didnt know it...lol...seriously accepted a situation "this is how it is gonna be--now what do i do?" i chose to back off and quit trying..me the original never-stop-trying- person. so you KNOW it was a bad situation. but cool. i already did it..:)

now on to the other 100,000 or so things...lol...right.


Its about one step at a time. Remember the cliche cant run before you walk. Its a pain in the ass, if you are anything like me, you want to have it all sorted and all sorted now.



God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


Its also a cliche, however I think it says it really well


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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:08 am 
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This has been a great thread. Thanks Jody. I really appreciate how willing you were to keep not "getting it" in front of everyone until you got it clear (HUG). That gives me the courage to do the same when I'm struggling. And while I've heard of Radical Acceptance I haven't worked with it before, so this has been a great way for me to get a lot clearer on it.


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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:35 am 
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I'm glad you "got it" Jody. It took me a while before I understood it too. But my T was patient and kept talking to me about it until it sunk in. It really is a good concept! :)

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:09 am 
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thanks for the support, yall! i appreciate it more than you know.

we tend to forget some (like me) just need more time to "get it" than others. having the kind of patience you all showed is so priceless. the more i feel pressured, the harder it is for me to learn.

i see no point in lying--i am here to learn. i have learned if some think im dumb, so be it. i am learning for me, not them. i tend to say "i know, im dumb" to head off the remarks from others. a bad habit. thanks Bg, for calling me on it.

its all so complicated and interwoven. yes, wizeone, i want it now. lol. and it wont happen, and it is deeply interwoven with so much else....but im not afraid of work or to do it so it does come to me once i keep trying. :)

thanks yall! hugsss.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:12 am 
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Jody just wanted to say in watching this process of you understanding RA I have read some information that concreted it a lot more for me. So hey even though I thought I had got it, now I know I have. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:26 am 
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((Tracy))

i want to add this. something i thought on.

to RA, one will and must feel the reality. and that is probably my biggest hurdle. my H chooses to drink. he will die from it. my mom had a mental illness.

im not sure WHY this is so hard for me to see. one would think it would easier. but for me, its not.

maybe because once i accept it, i accept i cant change it. and one of my biggest problems is my brainwashing that i cause about everything and thus can --read SHOULD--change it for others happiness.

i didnt realize how ingrained this was. to accept something IS, i also must see i cant change it. and that , for some reason, is just so hard for me. its like im a robot (lets make her with big boobs ok lol) that is my primary programming to live for. and once i accept something, i also see i not only cant change it, i couldnt even tho i want to so bad.

ah, this is a lightbulb happening....that deep "your the cause, you should fix it" is the issue. i know im not, but inside i think i still had that. fighting this brainwashing is so much harder than i ever dreamed it would be. but im getting it!!!!!

yes, certain things ARE. and yes, i cant do a thing about it. sorry but the ones responsible are just gonna have to deal with that! for once in their lives. all the yelling and such wont change the fact its their shit. i may hate it, i may be sad, but it just is.

this was the piece missing in the equation. AH HA.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:49 am 
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this is just so big for me.

im excited, im sure more will fall into place as the day goes on. and im sure the old feelings will resurface at times also but i can fight it this time.

no wonder i had so much anger. it was all the deep unspoken "i should be able to fix it" stuff. i daresay, maybe, Tracy, so is yours? way down in there? "i should be able to work, watch my kid, keep this idiot from guilt-tripping me out and keep everyone happy?" is this close?

then again, he is emotionally blackmailing you with someone you love. cruel. hurtful. wrong. and yes, i would be angry too! because its flat wrong. the WORST kind of abuse there is.

its all about accepting yes it is,.and thus i cant do a thing about it "being". i can stand against it in my own way but i cant CHANGE how someone feels.

this is just huge for me.

some of our feelings are so deep and complicated , we must always dig until we feel the click*. and once it clicks..its just so cool.

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 Post subject: Re: how to RA something against ones beliefs?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:19 pm 
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Yeah jody sounds pretty close to what I am coming to terms with yep!

Some things I am not responsible for, not eveything is my responsibility. Sometimes there are other parts to the equasion and once i step back and try and see why I am getting frustrated or feeling down trodden, or used or any other emotion. I am finding more and more often it's because i am trying to change something that is not in my control. I can't change the law for example. I can accept it, work with it. I might not agree with it. But somehow just accepting it is there allows me to see what I can do instead whilst allowing the conflict of interest.

I'm coming to see that RA works with great alongside boundary making. to acept the situation is, allows me to make appropriate boundaries and form appropriate responses to things. Once I have sussed out the given "it just is" I can work with it, rather than fixing it

Yep I have always said my ex holds the ace. He can use my son and melt my heart. Thing is if I never stand up for myself it will keep happening and I will keep doing things I don't want to/ don't have energy for or just really am unable to do. If I keep doing it though eventually and hopefully he might get the message eh? If he doesn't then the person that suffers in the long run is himself. I have requested he speak to me in person about matters concerning my son. I have also told my son that it is not his responsibility to pass me messages from his father. I also prepared my son and have told him I love him dearly. If I can't see him for any reason it is never to do with how little I care about him.

The difficult bit has always been the way his dad will use something like this to demonstrate to my son what a "bad mother" I am. It's my son that gets hurt in the process. I've got the point now and everytime it happens I apologise to my son for not being able to see him, tell him I miss him and explain it was unavoidable. Think I might just manage this way.

Sorry Jody I have just gone off on one in your thread I hope I haven't rambled too far off the point.

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"And knowing is half the battle" GI Joe PSA

Tracy formerly known as bogit


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