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 Post subject: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:28 pm 
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This is written by Sari on November 12th

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Radical Acceptance: We accept where we are in this moment. We don't have to like it or feel positive about it, but we accept it. But we don't dwell on it, or try to change it, we just calmly let those thoughts and feelings drift through our consciousness and then leave again, taking note that they were there but not feeling like we need to ruminate or chew on them in a futile effort to change what is. If there is any change that needs to happen, it's the notion of "reframing," where we try to look at a situation from a different perspective without actually trying to change or manipulate the reality of it.



I like this definition yet I seem to be struggling with the implementation of this philosophy into my daily living. These ideas make sense to me, but as for the past - determining what’s real, what’s pondering as opposed to just accepting a memory as reality from which I’m trying to just accept and feel the emotions in not easily determinable at any precise moment. I’m stumbling a lot, it’s not emotional turmoil bad, but understand these subtleties seems vital to my recovery. The answer feels close and I think time and practice with change this into a positive habit. I also still have the tendency to quickly shut out memories, am old habit. I guess my question is there something other then practice with trial and error that takes you through this process in a more efficient manner?


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Hi Anchorage,

I'm a little bit confused reading your post:
Quote:
determining what’s real, what’s pondering as opposed to just accepting a memory as reality from which I’m trying to just accept and feel the emotions in not easily determinable at any precise moment.

What I'm hearing is that you might be having trouble distinguishing a "real" memory (the accurate facts of a past situation) from the thoughts and/or feelings you have around that past event. Is that what you are saying?

FWIW, I think memory is a highly inaccurate thing. Physically, our bodies 'remember' all kinds of situations slightly different from the way they factually occurred. My brother is a police officer, and he says it really sucks when there are eye witnesses to any crime because you get any two people trying to recall the exact same event and there are always differences that make it seem like one person is lying even if they aren't. The way memory is formed is very subjective-- your mood at time of the event, your knowledge of similar situations, how close you might be to the persons involved, how your feeling physically, etc., etc. all are taken into account when memory is formed. For an event to be solidified in the mind, one must replay the memory of the event over and over in the mind (have you ever played that kid's game telephone? Where one person in a large circle starts a secret by whispering into the next person's ear a phrase, then they whisper to the next person until they reach the last person-- who inevitably comes up with a phrase wildly different from the original?) so the result is so-called eye-witnesses usually something slightly or wildly different from the 'facts' of a situation. Highly inaccurate actually!

What I'm trying to say with all of that is I don't think it matters if your memory is of the factual events or wishful thinking or whatever-- if you 'remember' something and it is painful to you, whether factual or not, it needs to be dealt with. Your feelings are very real and maybe more importantly very valid, so no matter what I think it's good to try to address them. If it hurts you-- it's 'real' enough.
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I also still have the tendency to quickly shut out memories, am old habit.

This seems like the crux of the problem to me. If you won't allow yourself to actually remember these painful parts of your past, how can you truly deal with them? Just seems like if I were to push things out of my head rather than thinking them through (which I overdo actually), they would just keep popping up. The subconscious doesn't like what it can't understand, IMO, so it's going to continually 'remind' the conscious brain of something until it makes some sort of sense to the unconscious part of me, then it can put it to rest for good. At least, that's what is seems my brain does. It really hurts to remember some aspects of my past.......but like ripping a band-aid, if I just get it over with I don't have to revisit all the time.
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is there something other then practice with trial and error that takes you through this process in a more efficient manner?

Yes, every tool over in the tool shed. :D Also, the more I can relate a memory to a physical sensation (i.e. when I remember being raped, I get nauseated or when I remember being scared the muscles in my neck lock up) and then eliminate the physical sensations first (place my head b/t my legs, stretch my neck, breathe deeply), I feel better. Somehow for me the physical sensation is easier to 'fix' and once that is done, the emotional aspect of it is easier too. In my definition of Radical Acceptance, I have to add in there a physical aspect. If I can't accept something on a physical level, I can't accept it on an emotional one either.

Sorry for the really long post, especially if I misunderstood what you were saying! This stuff takes time......try to cut yourself some slack and realize that it didn't take two weeks to get you to this point and it will definitely take longer to heal from it. Best wishes.

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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:03 pm 
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Harmonium wrote:
I'm a little bit confused reading your post:
Quote:
determining what’s real, what’s pondering as opposed to just accepting a memory as reality from which I’m trying to just accept and feel the emotions in not easily determinable at any precise moment.

What I'm hearing is that you might be having trouble distinguishing a "real" memory (the accurate facts of a past situation) from the thoughts and/or feelings you have around that past event. Is that what you are saying?



OK – this is about the ex. First I accept that it’s over and I’m using all the tools I’ve learned as I’m being my own best friends. What I’m writing about is the things that pop in my head or old habits. For example, I see her with someone else enjoying live without me, or I wonder what it would be like to run into her. The emotions I feel from these situations are real but the events I’ve created are based on assumptions and fantasies and therefore are I don’t know if it’s the truth or if they would occur. But at the same time I wonder if this is dwelling on the past. When these things pop in my head I think it’s important that I deal with them because they are real to me, but at times I don’t see the relevance of dealing with something that is over. I don’t want to fall into some trap of trying to fix the past I just want the best way to accept things and get past them.


Harmonium wrote:
This seems like the crux of the problem to me. If you won't allow yourself to actually remember these painful parts of your past, how can you truly deal with them? Just seems like if I were to push things out of my head rather than thinking them through (which I overdo actually), they would just keep popping up. The subconscious doesn't like what it can't understand, IMO, so it's going to continually 'remind' the conscious brain of something until it makes some sort of sense to the unconscious part of me, then it can put it to rest for good.



Well this is where I question the subtleties of radical acceptance. At what point am I dwelling on something as opposed to accepting it? I am having issues as to when is the right time to think about it and when to put it down. I just wonder if I am keeping myself in this longer them I need to.
I’m ok with the fact that I still really care for her, I might still be in love with her (although I find that strange in some ways) but she doesn’t feel the same way for me. OK – that is what it is, I don’t like it but I accept it.


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:52 pm 
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Thanks for explaining; I get it now. :biggrin Let me see if I can be of use....
Quote:
The emotions I feel from these situations are real but the events I’ve created are based on assumptions and fantasies and therefore are I don’t know if it’s the truth or if they would occur.

How can it be the Truth if it hasn't happened?

I get that the emotional response is real.......but it's not based on something that has actually happened, just what might happen. It's can't be the "truth" because the "truth" is yet to be determined. There are still a hundred ways that life can go-- all as 'true' as the next. It's like being embarrassed about forgetting your line in a play the same day you get the part. It would be perfectly rational and maybe even healthy to be nervous at the reality of obtaining the leading role......but embarrassed? It hasn't happened-- wouldn't that emotion be out of place, an undue hinderence preventing you from actually learning the lines in the present? Maybe for you it's okay to be sad or angry because of the loss of the relationship, but being anxious over a possibility doesn't help you?

You still have control over the outcome!
Quote:
But at the same time I wonder if this is dwelling on the past.

Are you thinking about what future you want to have and planning a way to get there? How about enjoying your life as it currently is? Would you still have to deal with these heavy emotional responses today if you didn't imagine scenarios where it was something happened in the future?
I think it's dwelling on the past if these 'maybes' cause you such emotional distress that you can't be happy in the right now because you can't stop the what ifs. Are you thinking about the future so much that you can't enjoy today?
Quote:
At what point am I dwelling on something as opposed to accepting it?

Do you feel at peace with the situation? Acceptance always gives me a feeling of peace, even if I still think of it at times.....
Quote:
I am having issues as to when is the right time to think about it and when to put it down. I just wonder if I am keeping myself in this longer them I need to.

Does thinking about these things prevent your current happiness? Is thinking about the possible futures the only upsetting thing to you at this time? Are you dealing with the other problem(s)? Is merely thinking about these things-- rather than the actual things themselves-- the problem? I mean.....does it cause you more distress to think about seeing your ex or is the last time you actually did see her causing more distress in your present moment?

Relationships are very complicated; they take a lot of time to get over, especially if you weren't the one to end it. It's okay to grieve. But.....other than RAing the fact that it's actually over........ it sounds to me like the problem is more twisted thinking (fortune telling) and especially separation of stuff.

If the problem is the thoughts, change the thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:42 pm 
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I think this is what I was looking for,

Harmonium wrote:
it sounds to me like the problem is more twisted thinking (fortune telling) and especially separation of stuff.


Twisted thinking, separation of stuff, and making assumptions have been integrated into my way of thinking for so long it’s just hard to break this habit. This is what I was trying to say about thinking about things that are not real. I’ve been working on being aware when mind starts to twist my thinking (fortune telling), make sure I’m separating stuff, and I’m not making assumptions. It’s just been difficult to catch these thoughts and thereby change them.

One of the challenging parts is making sure I’m not changing my thinking on the wrong subject. If it an issue I need to see and feel as opposed to a thought that I just need to change. This is what I see as the Subtleties of Radical Acceptance.

Thanks for your insight. I’ll spend some more time with untwisting my thinking and the separation of stuff.

As for enjoying my life, it’s never been better. I just want to keep working on the issues that bother me. I want to keep striving towards recovery. I know it might seem like I’m having all these issues and things are really hard for me, and yes this is very hard and yes I’m am stuggeling, but I’ve never felt better about myself. And I will find the tools and understanding I need to keep progressing.

Thanks again for all your amazing help 


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:15 am 
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Harmonium,

Thanks for your input. You have giving me many good ideas to consider. I’ve spent some time re-reading about twisted and untwisting my thinking, (with an emphasis on fortune telling) and the separation of stuff. I now have a clearer understanding (most seem obvious now) of these issues that I have been using to hold up my development. My plan is the use the five steps when I catch myself thinking within these areas; stop, determine what’s form of thinking needs to be adjusted, assess my options (3), and choose a course of action that will be beneficial to me, and just do it. I’ll look for the direction will take me forward with developing healthy thinking and work me in the direction of being happy with me and the life I’ve always wanted.

This will take as long as it takes to become a healthy habit, but this type of negative thinking has been second nature to me for so long I know that changing these thinking habits will yield many positive returns.

Thanks 


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:33 pm 
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Harmonium,

I came to an interesting understanding this morning while working on untwisting my thinking. I’ve stated several times that I have accepted that this relationship is over, but I don’t think I clearly understood what that entailed. I can see now while I understood that what once was is no longer, I wasn’t yet willing to radically accept this fact without judgment. As I asked myself why it was necessary to keep running this factitious scenarios, it became clear to me I wanted to place responsibility on past, present, and future scenarios (or fortune telling) to grasp at some reasoning. This act of placing blame and not accepting things just happen and will continue to happen without fault, just as each person has the right to make their own choices as people are just people, has kept my in this unhealthy state for some time. While I plan to use the five steps as previously stated there needs to be an additional step of asking myself what the underlying reason for my unhealthy thoughts. This morning is seems to be trying to place blame and I can see where this is counterproductive to my recovery.

I can see today that so many of the tools and underling philosophy of the recovery process need to be readily available to decipher and understand the issue at hand. This is quit a convoluted endeavor but I have no intention of allow that to refrain me from getting to the goal of healthy thinking and thereby healthy living.

It does seem to take me quite some time to find the answers. But as I’m gain understand and use of effective tools I must admit I’m starting to enjoy the process or at least I’m enjoying the results. I think I’m ready for what’s next.

Additional: I’ve side step your responses as to happy living as I didn’t see why trying to be happy as my main objective but instead was focused on the path to recovery, but it’s clear to me today that I can’t see a good reason not to work towards being happy about and in my recovery. So when I work to change my thoughts I will instill the ideas that mean happiness for me.

Thanks again for your assistance.


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:49 pm 
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When I first came to BPDR, I learned about the concept of the pendulum swing and it's effect on the recovery process. A pendulum will swing back and forth until finally resting in the middle. With my recovery, I have swung from an extremely-depressed-wild-emotional state to fix-everything-I-think-or-feel state until finally I'm trying to find the balance between the two. Point is.....it's difficult to know sometimes whether the thoughts/feelings you have are ones that need improvement or just 'normal'. I still struggle with this sometimes!

I think your plan is an excellent one. I'm glad that even though you are having some distressing thoughts, you can still see how good life is right now-- that newfound sense of confidence is an incredible thing!

Separation of Stuff has been an invaluable to to me-- really most problem in my life get down to where the responsibility lies (my stuff vs. other people's stuff). Once I can figure out what's mine to own, I can then figure out how I want to feel/act about it and put a plan into place where I get what I want (I really like getting my way, lol!).

You are doing very well with all of this Anchorage. Keep it up! :biggrin

I have just seen your new post (as I was about to post the above). I still think the above is true-- it's difficult to find the middle and deciphering what's what can be a great tool. I don't think of it as 'blame' because to me 'blame' has a negative connotation and I try really hard to focus on positives. I think of it as my stuff (what I can control) vs. other people's stuff (what I can do nothing about).

And I firmly agree that focusing on the here-and-now and what makes you happy in this moment are very important-- I can't begin living my life at some undetermined time in the future for then I would have 'lost' the past two years waiting for something I could have been experiencing all along.

Oh, and fwiw, I think you are getting through these tools and concepts pretty quickly. Took me a lot longer for them to really sink in to where I could use them in my everyday life. Please try to be patient with yourself-- this stuff takes time! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:02 am 
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I came to a strange realization over the last few days. I’ve been working hard at being mindful and making sure my mind doesn’t twist my thinking, stops making assumptions, and property separates my stuff from her stuff as this all relates to the ending of the relationship that I’ve been trying to radically accept as over without blame or judgment. I worked each thought (as it pertained to this relationship), asking its relevance and thereby not allowing a single negative thought to fully fester without stopping it and working the 5 steps to find healthy thinking to replace it.

As I worked this process these unhealthy thoughts seemed to be occurring more and more frequently, but each time one would come I would work the issue without judgment and change my thoughts. As time pasted it became easier and easier to recognize the beginning of negative thoughts and easier to change these to healthy ones.

Sometime during the second day it started to become second nature to catch the negativity, quickly assess the issue, and then instill healthy thoughts. At some point I became aware this negative thinking patter was in conflict to the person I’ve always wanted to be and therefore this process was not really about fighting to change my thinking but more about allowing myself to be who I want to be or really be who I am.

Then a strange feeling came over me. It wasn’t that which I would have foreseen, it was a sadness, a deep sadness. Maybe I’ve been fighting for so long, fighting with everything I had, fighting to win. I can see now that the only person I’ve been fighting has been myself and winning at recovery is not about fighting it’s about acceptance and acceptance isn’t about winning it’s about letting go.

I feel like I’ve lost. I’ve lost that which I was fighting for so long. The truth is I lost this a long time ago, yet something inside me was willing to tear myself apart and continue to struggle and suffer for the unyielding idea of holding on to an untruth. There is a change within me, again not that which I would have expected. There is an uneasily felling as I think about what’s next. In many ways I can see my unwilling to let go was about the fear of moving on, the fear about accepting it’s time to see what’s next. This is indeed strange to me.

There are so many good things that have come from this, so much that I have learned. This has been the hardest thing I’ve ever done and the most rewarding. I truly believed each struggle I’ve endured was necessary for me to understand the tools and program the processes that I need for my journey. I’m not saying that I’m done with my work here, there is still much more to learn and accept, be mindful of, and practice I just feel like I’ve crossed a bridge today; I’m not sure where it leads but I know it’s the right direction for me.

I don’t know if this is radical acceptance but I can say this is the only major breakthrough I’ve had which isn’t time sensitive. I don’t need to do anything with this today because the only person this affects is me.

For all the people that have provided light to the darkness I was struggling through I thank you. I’m don’t know I could have gotten to this place without you.


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:58 pm 
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Quote:
At some point I became aware this negative thinking patter was in conflict to the person I’ve always wanted to be and therefore this process was not really about fighting to change my thinking but more about allowing myself to be who I want to be or really be who I am.

This sounds exactly like what I feel when I talk about 'finding the flow'. For me also it is more about allowing something to happen than it is about fighting with something. Flow. It can be a really scary feeling.......but it's also a feeling that gives me the most sense of who I am, who I want to be. It gives me a feeling of control over how I perceive the world and how I can show myself to the outer world.
Quote:
Maybe I’ve been fighting for so long, fighting with everything I had, fighting to win. I can see now that the only person I’ve been fighting has been myself and winning at recovery is not about fighting it’s about acceptance and acceptance isn’t about winning it’s about letting go.

Okay......following your logic.......if you have now come to a place of letting go (and that's what you now see is the way to 'win' at recovery), doesn't that mean that you have indeed 'won'? I mean.....if letting go is the key and you are now in a place where letting go feels 'right' to you-- doesn't that mean you have won the fight? Isn't the rest just follow-through?
Quote:
I don’t know if this is radical acceptance but I can say this is the only major breakthrough I’ve had which isn’t time sensitive. I don’t need to do anything with this today because the only person this affects is me.

Sounds exactly like Radical Acceptance to me. You're doing some very tough work and succeeding at it! :biggrin

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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:59 pm 
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Wow, I so want to come back to this, hopefully tonight. Anchorage - I so relate to what you are saying. A lot of my emotional pain came from thinking of my ex, who he was with, if I ran in to him, what would I say, etc. Thoughts of him and the pain that flooded me everytime I thought of him or even saw a trigger (like a movie we watched together, etc.) was so intense that during that time I honestly don't think it was the right time, for me, to attempt to radically accept. That time was more about attempting to cope, attempting to stay alive, attempting to function in the real world still.

As trite and annoying as this sounds, time helps. But also for me, I had to do a LOT of thought-stopping before I could even get to the radical acceptance part because if I allowed myself to have those thoughts, it was just too soon, too painful and quite frankly too painful. So, I thought-stopped and then during therapy session we would slowly try to work on radical acceptance and untwisting. 10 months has now passed since we broke up and honestly it is only in the last few months that I've been able to get a handle on the radical acceptance of the situation. Before then, it was about coping.

Okay, I'm rambling and I don't think I'm really articulating so I"ll try to come back to this tongiht. I just wanted to say I REALLY relate and please know you are in my thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:00 pm 
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Harmonium,


Harmonium wrote:
if you have now come to a place of letting go (and that's what you now see is the way to 'win' at recovery), doesn't that mean that you have indeed 'won'? I mean.....if letting go is the key and you are now in a place where letting go feels 'right' to you-- doesn't that mean you have won the fight? Isn't the rest just follow-through?



I understand what you are saying about winning at recovery, I guess I just didn’t think that letting go of the fight would hurt. I had this idea that I would be happy about it or at least just feel good inside, but that is not the case.


As for my progress, I’m going in the right direction for me and I have no intention of quitting – so I’m happy with the outcome for myself but I don’t like the feelings inside me about other stuff. It just were I am today and I accept that. My former tendency was to find a way to lie to myself and make myself feel better. I don’t see this as helpful for my long term progress. I think it wise for me to just allow this to take its course. When I'm ready to feel better about these things I will.


Thanks for your support


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:04 pm 
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I have a question. It’s seems to me I want to be sad. It just seems like a nice safe place; no expectations, no risk, just sad. I wonder if my unwillingness to look at what I have gained or look for what’s next has something to do with my reluctance to move forward with my life. I know one of the factors that made accepting things where over difficult, had to do with my inability to truly believe I would find someone that was better for me. I guess the prospect of moving forward and starting over is scary and I really don’t like it. I can accept it, I just don’t like it.

Or maybe it’s ok to just be where I am until it’s natural for me to move in a good direction for me. Pushing ideas in my head has not worked out well for me in the past. This is somewhat new ground for me and I’m just feeling around to find a good direction.


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 Post subject: Re: The subtleties of Radical Acceptance:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:27 am 
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I've been off board for a couple of days, so I'm just seeing this.

Two thoughts:
Quote:
I understand what you are saying about winning at recovery, I guess I just didn’t think that letting go of the fight would hurt. I had this idea that I would be happy about it or at least just feel good inside, but that is not the case.

It helps me to remember that emotions are temporary. So you're feeling sad now-- it's okay! Feel sad if that's what is authentic to you. Sometimes the reality doesn't match up with the expectation (usually for me, lol!). Just remember......whatever you are feeling today might be different tomorrow. For me, my thoughts about something have a great deal to do with my emotions about the same thing. You're getting there!
Quote:
Or maybe it’s ok to just be where I am until it’s natural for me to move in a good direction for me.

I think so; at least for me this was the case. But.....when I did decide I was ready to move forward, nothing helped me to do that more than just using my actions. With action rather than emotion, I found (am still finding!) my way forward.

It IS scary. It's important to give yourself credit for what you have learned, what you have already gained in this area. There is no reason I can see to rush this. Just know that when you are ready, we will be here to help you through.

All my best,
H

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