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 Post subject: Incongruence
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:17 am 
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Another thing to sit with and accept. I am a perceptive person and I can tell when another person is bothered. I don't know what they are bothered by unless they tell me so I don't assume. It is a bit difficult when you are perceiving something and it is being denied by the other person. Everything is fine when you know damned right well that it is not. This could potentially be a huge trigger for me if I let my imagination run wild about what is going on with the other person. In my FOG this was a constant theme. People would act (very badly I might add) like everything was fine when it was not. There were serious emotional disturbances. You could cut the tension with a knife but God forbid anyone actually discuss what was bothering them. What would end up happening is that eventually somebody would break and have an emotional outburst/meltdown. It is disappointing how emotionally dishonest many people in the world are. Radical acceptance of this is particularly difficult. What does one do? I would prefer to be surrounded by emotionally honest people, or at the very least people that are willing to try and be honest.

Please do share if you can relate to this and how it makes you feel.


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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:47 am 
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I would approach this from a different perspective. I can think I can perceive when someone is emotionally troubled but to label it as such would be a form of making an assumption. If I then ask "Are you troubled by something?" and the answer is "No, everything's fine" then I would need to simply accept that as the truth rather than make a further assumption that they are lying, incapable of emotional honesty or anything else. In the absence of concrete facts to the contrary, the person could have stubbed their toe, gotten a traffic ticket, not slept well the night before, been chewed out at work or may be downright livid with me for something I did or didn't do. Until I know, I can make no assumptions about the cause of the silence, tension, strain or anything else. And unless I know for a fact that I have some sort of control over rectifying a wrong, there is nothing at all for me to do. That means I would disregard the silence, tension, strain or whatever and simply go on with my life while passing along "Well, if there's anything I can do, please let me know. I'm here for you."

(I'm guessing that FOG is an acronym of some sorts (as I vaguely recall it from another board) but I can't remember what it stands for. Any enlightenment there would be appreciated.)

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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:30 pm 
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FOG = Family Of Origin. I hear you and I understand about the assumption thing. When I know the person really well who is doing the whole I'm fine thing it is pretty obvious that something is indeed bothering them. I definitely can't assume the what but the fact that they are indeed upset is as clear as day. That is a perception that is in alignment with reality. If it was a stranger it would be a different story. I have let them know that I am here but sometimes people just are not ready to tell you what is bothering them for whatever reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Even if you assume that your perception is correct - that something is troubling the person - how does that change anything? Even if you believe they're troubled but they say everything's fine, could you (radically) accept that they are simply not ready or are presently unable to / incapable of talking about whatever it is that's bothering them right then and there? Let it go. It's not your responsibility to make them open up. It's not your responsibility to slowly & carefully pry open the (emotional) release valve to avoid an explosion. If they explode, that's THEIR problem / business / choice. If it happens and if it comes to that, boundaries and consequences come in quite handy I've found.

People would act (very badly I might add) like everything was fine when it was not. So what? In the overall context (specific examples from your past aside), why does it matter if someone else is conducting themselves in a manner this is out of alignment with how they feel? They're entitled to do that just as WE are entitled to force ourselves to act in a way that is completely foreign and contradictory to everything we have know when we begin recovery work. Our standard operating procedure is to lash out and fly into a rage but our recovery work tells us to halt, figure out what's wrong, develop three possible solutions and select one, responding in a much more rational fashion. That's completely out of alignment with how we might be feeling when we want nothing more than to react all over the place. Just because someone else is doing the same thing for different reasons, in different settings, doesn't make it any less appropriate. They - like us - are trying to control their actions until their brain and heart are able to cope in a rational manner.

What would end up happening is that eventually somebody would break and have an emotional outburst/meltdown. It seems as though you might be in the midst of twisted thinking. Not so much that particular statement because I wouldn't dream of discounting your history. I'm sure that it was fairly common for sudden breakdowns, rages, outburts, etc. to occur. What concerns me is that you've taken that baggage from your past and are now applying it to all situations in which someone says "Everything's fine" contrary to your assumption (regardless of how well a person may be known) that something is bothering them. Even if you're talking about the very same people (who would bottle things up and erupt later) from the past does not mean that in this particular situation, at this present time, that this is what's going on. Sure, you can mentally prepare yourself ("Okay, I'll take your word for it but I won't be surprised if you lose it tomorrow.") but by applying the filters from your past to situations in your present, it sounds like you're setting yourself up for trouble / failure / heartache.

It is disappointing how emotionally dishonest many people in the world are. I'm surprised you would label it "emotionally dishonest." That seems like a very harsh phrasing. It's possible that they just don't know how to deal with emotions. They might not have been taught how to say "This is what's bothering me." It sounds simple enough but it's surprisingly hard for people to do - especially people who've never learned how to share emotions in a safe, trusting environment.

I would prefer to be surrounded by emotionally honest people, or at the very least people that are willing to try and be honest. I think all of us in the human race would like to be surrounded by emotionally honest people. And who's to say that even the people who say "Everything's fine" until it's clearly not fine aren't trying to be honest?

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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 7:26 am 
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Did you read my previous post? I think that we are having a communication breakdown. I am radically accepting that although there is indeed something wrong there is nothing I can do about it.

Frankly I find your so what thing invalidating and I don't like it. I did not react. I sat with my feelings and I did very well with that. I am on here trying to share my process. I do not know what the other person is doing and why they are doing it. I have accepted that. I am entitled to feel however I feel about it though.

I would suggest to you to look at your own thinking. I am thinking very clearly. Do me a favor and back off. I am not finding what you have to say helpful at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 11:32 am 
I can relate to this. I am hyperviligant, keen, however you'd like to put it. This was a big problem in my past as I always wanted to "go digging" and draw it out of them before they would explode later on - HOWEVER - I noted that my pushing, poking, prodding, and general "Yeah, something's wrong, but you're just not gonna tell me, are you? Fine, do whatever you want", mildly haughty and probably annoyed attitude acted as a push-button for said explosion. Not that I am responsible for a person's choice to blow up, but I can safely say that all that can really irritate a person.

I think there's such a thing as being too perceptive and I could pick up anything, really. If someone was annoyed that it took 10 minutes for them to find their keys, I'd be able to pick up on that very mild annoyance and it would eat away at me. Even if I didn't know what it was, I knew it was something and I became mildly obsessed with it.

I find Ash's breakdown of some of those sorts of thoughts we have to serve as an extremely helpful reminder. Sometimes it is better for me to say "So what? Fuck it. They're doing what they know, I can't try to intervene or vilify them for that."

While we all do vent here and say how we feel, ultimately the goal here presents itself as finding solution and exploring uncomfortable thoughts and behaviors. Renee, as with anything - Look at the big picture first. Examine it, take what you feel is pertinent to use, and chuck the rest. What I might find helpful is going to differ from what you do, or what anyone else does on this site. If you don't find it helpful, then don't use it. But I do wonder if it's a possibility that you might be doing yourself a disservice by putting your hands over your ears because a couple words or phrases didn't sit with you the right way. Remember how you did it with that banana to the moon therapist? I can't think of her name, lol. The one that you said was very confrontational and 'in your face'. You were able to draw from that PRECISELY what you needed, some things that you weren't even looking for, because your eyes and ears were wide open, observing everything, with your filters up, letting everything run through it. You let in that which you needed and wanted to let in, and left the confrontational or hurtful feeling words to sit inside the filter, to examine and pull apart at a later time, when you felt ready to deal with that.

Recall how good you felt about that? As you should, you did a great job at taking things in from a grey POV. Work it each time.


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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:12 pm 
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The core of my prior past was: I think you're trying to / have accepted an erroneous assumption rather than accepting the person's actions or words. There's a very large difference there.

I'm sorry that we are unable to communicate effectively again. It seems as though things are okay between us as long as I don't challenge anything you've already decided is "the right thing" but as soon as I suggest maybe there could be another way to look at things, we lose the ability to communicate.

Your "Past Filter" seems to be on at all times and any references to anything remotely associated with the Past are immediately suspect in your view. My "so what" is not saying "So you were in an unstable environment growing up, who cares, that's not valid!" If that's what you got from my paragraph-long reply from the two little words at the beginning, that makes me sad.

The "so what" is intended to leave the past in the past and focus on the NOW. The past does NOT control the present. This is the present moment and if it starts feeling like the past, it's usually a good opportunity to use some DBT mindfulness exercises or use The Five Steps to Stop/HALT and really examine what's going on for you at that precise moment. It reminds you of the past - so what aspects of the present are your past memories trying to control?

The "so what" is intended to separate your stuff from their stuff. If someone else is acting disingenuously, that's their choice, their consequences, their downfall, their opportunity to improve their decision-making skills. That's NOT something you can do for them. They're acting badly (in your opinion) - so what piece of that is under your control? Nothing.

You are most certainly entitled to feel however you feel about whatever it is you want to feel things about!

I'm merely trying to help you see that sometimes our feelings are based on erroneous assumptions.

I'm merely trying to help you see that sometimes our feelings are based on triggers from the past rather than present circumstances.

I'm merely trying to help you see that sometimes our feelings are based on distorted thinking.

I'm merely trying to help you see that sometimes our feelings are based on a jumbled mess of stuff that would be better separated and assigned to the proper areas/persons of responsibility.

I'm merely trying to help you see that if we address some of the underlying issues (erroneous assumptions, triggers from the past, distorted thinking, unseparated stuff) then the feelings subside, dissipate or even dissolve.

I'm merely trying to help you see that this shifting of perspective can take great weights off our shoulders and alleviate some of the suffering we're enduring at our own hands/minds. I can't imagine you would prefer to suffer needlessly. You are welcome to place me on your FOE list so that my replies aren't readily apparent to you in the thread (though they would become visible once you hit Reply and scroll through the prior posts in the thread) if they are that triggering to you.

For what it's worth to you, congratulations on sitting with the reaction you had before responding! That's fabulous, it truly is.

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 Post subject: Re: Incongruence
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:12 pm 
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I do not consider anyone on here a foe. That is just not my style. I am aware that there is nothing I can do about it when something is wrong with a person in my proximity and they do not feel like sharing it with me. It would be nice if the person could say I don't feel like talking about it right now. I have to sit with the fact that they choose not to do that but instead say everything is fine when it really isn't. It all comes spilling out eventually so why not just put it out there? That's what I am saying. I guess I have a long way to go in the patience area or perhaps I need to assess whether I can live with constant incongruence from this person. In my FOG lying and emotional dishonesty were rampant. I do not wish to subject myself to this sort of thing now that I am an adult. It is a very difficult situation because this is the person that I married. Here are some links on emotional dishonesty. I am working very hard on being emotionally honest with myself.

http://www.joy2meu.com/DysfunctionalFamilies.htm

http://www.francesfox.com/spirits/emoti ... l-of-self/


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 Post subject: Re: My Past Filter
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:31 pm 
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My past filter is not on at all times but I am keenly aware that the person that I have chosen to marry has a lot of the qualities of each of my parents. At the time I married him I was unaware of this. I am very aware of it now. Part of my process has been realizing this, much to my horror and dismay. He is not my Daddy or Mommy but he displays many behaviors that I feel are abusive and are the exact type of behaviors that I experienced in my FOG. The thing is now I have a choice whether or not to put up with it. When you are a child you can't just pack your bags and leave. You are dependent on your parents for your very survival. I am an adult woman and I take responsibility for my thoughts, feelings, and actions. Again, my thinking on what is going on in this relationship is very clear. I have to keep a cool head and get my ducks in a row. I am not suffering that much at all. I actually feel pretty calm all things considered. I am choosing to look at what I have going for me in life and I am counting the blessings that I do have. I have reached a point where I feel that I deserve better treatment than this but there are financial matters that need to be sorted out. I have realized that I do not trust this person. I think my reasons for not doing so are very valid. I do not want to create unnecessary upheavals and drama in my life in the meantime but I also am not going to pretend like everything is cool because it's not. It is not ok with me to be lied to.

Why it matters when someone conducts themselves in a manner that is out of alignment with the way they feel on a consistent basis is because they come off like a real liar to me. I do not want to have liars in my life.


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