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 Post subject: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:34 pm 
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ok, i could attribute a couple of the 10..all or nothing thinking, and labeling. i am not doing the personalization or blame any longer, not owning the words of others. i can see its their belief but that doesnt make it true or who i am.

untwist:

my computer is running so slow..i could hum the theme from jeopardy here........

1. identify the distortion. i think a person doesnt like me when someone calls me negative things over a long period of time.

2. examine the evidence. someone says im x or y without knowing me more than once or twice. ie..over a period of time. did they say this? yes. did i hear it how it was said? yes. so it happened.

3. double standard method. dont quite know how to apply this. have i said such things in return? no. have done something to cause every one of the times? no.

4. experiment. tried to be quiet, didnt work. tried ignoring. worked for me but didnt help. nothing i see to try works for long.

5. thinking in shades of gray. could it mean other things? possibly. it could be a feeling from others real life being projected onto me. is it actually as bad as i feel it is? i cant see the gray here. words are words. i cant figure out how to make them less....concrete....

6. survey method. done this. some agree with me, some agree with the mods. so that is a wash.

7. define the terms. ok...that is my issue. i define the terms as exactly what they were , as stated. not sure what else to do with this one. did they actually use this term or that term? ummm , yes.

8.sub semantics. should i sub a word for the one they used? if i should, why?

9. re attribution. think about factors attributing to it. i have and see where i should have chosen a better way to avoid the person to avoid their blow ups. this doesnt feel fair to me, but i am going to do it to see if it can be minimized in the future.

10. cost benefit analysis. how effective is my feeling bad or angry over this? i could work on this and on ignoring everyone who is talking to me concerning this.

the problem lies in me assuming someone doesnt like me when they say bad things about who i am, over a long period of time with no positives in the whole thing ever.

i do not know how to assume otherwise. i do not know how to untwist this into "even tho they say negative things, they either do like me or dont care one way or the other". the trouble is, that would be twisted to me and not my thinking.

yikes. it must too foreign to me to get this. that is one way i judge another if they do like me....we are alike in our ideas...we are respectful to each other, we like the same stuff, we understand the others behavior. when someone has none of the above, and yet continually comes at me, i assume it is something in them that is the issue, and that they dont like me because of it. i try to only control what i can control...my reactions and behaviors in return.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:45 pm 
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jodyisme wrote:
1. identify the distortion. i think a person doesnt like me when someone calls me negative things over a long period of time.

Are you sure YOU are being called negative things? Is there any chance that people are pointing out negative, unhealthy BEHAVIOUR/ACTIONS instead?

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:49 pm 
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Is it possible that you may mistake "care" for "like"?
I believe we've talked about how it is possible to care about someone even if we don't particularly like them. People may care about my well-being even though they often feel annoyed with me.

Another twist may be the magnification, the overstatement of a situation. Do you think someone doesn't like you, or that they hate you, or that they can't stand you? It's very easy to exaggerate negatives, but it's also not helping us at all when we do it. The more extremely I phrase something, the more extremely I feel it.
"Doesn't like" and "hate" aren't really the same thing - that's more of a black & white thing. As in...If you don't like me then you hate me. Going to the extreme and not stopping anywhere in the middle.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:21 pm 
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P.S. - in order to effectively untwist the thinking, one must first identify the manner in which things have gotten twisted. I may have missed it but it would appear you've skipped over the part in which you identify which types of twisted thinking you've engaged in before hitting the stage in which you can then untwist those twists. So did I miss it or did you just bypass that part?

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:09 pm 
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no Ash. im not mistaking. i just cant copy the things said. not in public. they are names. not unhealthy behaviors. they are about WHO i am, vs how i behave. they were not worded as jody, you have done and here is why i consider it unhealthy. they were worded as jody, you are...x y and z.

minx, yes, your correct in that terms used will not help the depth of feelings. however, i "think" this is gonna be one of those "i believe" things, rather than a societal thing. in my beliefs, a stranger who calls me names would fall under dislike. when it goes on for awhile, it becomes more to unhealthy hate or obsession. if it lasts longer than a month, it would be under my belief, intense dislike or hate. intense dislike , i will say. i tend to use hate a bit too freely.

i understand the diff now in caring vs actual dislike. i got that.

i also think someone can not like,,,dislike...and hate which are all differing degrees of negative attention. i dont believe they are the same thing.

ok Ash, i will try. i may have overlooked it. let me see.

1. all or nothing. could be if i had some positive stuff to balance it. i dont. i think i get the jist of what is meant. which is i have no positive qualities with this person. their outlook seems pretty all or nothing, i am bad and thats that.
2. overgeneralization. this seems more on the other side than me. i dont think i am being too general as with others i can argue and then discuss. i actually think the other does the above 2 things. had i anything to balance it out --it would be diff. like...but here, jane was nice to me so i know she isnt saying this to be mean.
3. mental filter. i am quite guilty of this with about everything some days. but again, with no positive things for balance,,,im not sure. and the depth of the wording is quite...deep with negative things. not just your shitty but descriptive examples of why i am.
4. discounting the positive. again, something i do a LOT. i ignore the positives told me and dwell on the negatives. but again, with this i have no positives from the person to balance it out.
5. jumping to conclusions. again, something i do quite often. but not in this case, for the above reasons jane/john doe is so .....extravagant in the examples. its hard to jump to a conclusion when its pretty well put out there for ya.
6. magnification. something i also do. a lot. but in this case? see above.
7. emotional reasoning. im sure i do this. i have in the past. if they think this about me, it must be true. so i could have a lot of this going on. if jane/john says this, they must hate me". perhaps they dont hate...but i cant shake the idea of dislike.
8. should ideas--yes. i have "if onlys" if only i could explain myself so they saw me as i really am....if only i could say something that would change their minds. so yes, i do this one.
9. labeling--yes. if there wasnt a kernel of truth no one would say those things about me. so i must be doing something to cause it. i waste a lot of energy trying to undo whatever the fuck it is im "doing" in vain hopes of stopping anothers behavior. sometimes i do something to prove it, if they think im shitty, then i can show how shitty i really am. yep, i do those.
10. Personalization and Blame - Personalization comes when you hold yourself personally responsible for an event that isn't entirely under your control. again, yes. i still have a teeny part of me doing that. not as much, but some. im responsible for how jane/john think of me.

sarah wanted me to try this and i still have trouble with the basic premise....why would someone like someone or not care and still voice negative things at them all the time? to me, it is dislike of the person. i just cant wrap my mind around it being twisted on my part to think im disliked if someone does this all the time to me.

so i asked for basic reasons behind her thoughts. serious, basic reasons she has to think if jane/john told her something negative about herself every day at work..once a day without fail, nothing nice about her, how could she think they like her? how could she think otherwise than "they dont like me". i dont get it. i woud not dream someone liked me if all they did was be negative to me about me. well, a 4th grade boy maybe, who pulls hair of the girl he likes,,,but other than that? nope. people who either dont care or like someone just wont do that consistently all the time with no positive words in there somewhere.

we may have to agree to disagree that im twisted in this thinking. i dunno yet.

conversely remember one solution to someone who is always nasty to ya? be sweet to them. smile,,say hi, drown em in kindness? i use to do that to a lady in a chat room, wow she hated it. lol. took all the fun out of her being negative.

to condense, sarah said i was twisted thinking when i think someone doesnt like me when all they do is say negative things about me or to me.

and i dont see it.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:21 pm 
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2. examine the evidence. someone says im x or y without knowing me more than once or twice. ie..over a period of time. did they say this? yes. did i hear it how it was said? yes. so it happened.


What about the evidence of when the person specifically stated she did not dislike you? You have overlooked that.

And your "belief" is not justification. Beliefs and facts are very different.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:09 am 
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when a person states 2 opposing views, i look to behavior for clarification.

if the person is respectful and nice to me, and it happens once, i can chalk it up to a bad day.

if the person continues in the future as in the past with negative words, and is disrespectful to me, i consider it differently.

behavior..not words, sarah. words are cheap. behavior shows the true feelings.

and since i found out i was NOT twisted in my thinking i feel very validated that im not losing my mind, nor was i imagining something.

one day its indifferent, one day its dislike...look to the behaviors, it will tell the truth underneath.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:16 am 
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damn it, hit post.

i have had to do this all my life, sarah. what to believe? that is a ACOA trait.

we learn to look beyond words. we learn to check behaviors. behaviors mean a ton to a ACOA. they show us reality. they tell us if the words mean anything, because anyone can mouth words. but no one can deny their inner stuff for long. it WILL come out. in type, in real, in behaviors.

i suggest you begin to look beyond cheap words and check behaviors.

you said how charming a sociopath can be,. on the surface, sure. anyone can. ARE they charming inside? hardly. see, one can make the outside be ANYTHING. its inside one cant hide forever. watch a little deeper.

this is total a ACOA thing. we learned it way back. how can daddy or mommy or whoever say they love us yet miss our birthday party or school event? oh yes, we have learned this lesson. in your logic, the persons own feelings are being invalidated by your beliefs. careful with that.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:53 am 
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this has taken a very interesting turn.

words and facades vs behaviors. something dear to me, as a ACOA. something i work on in counseling.

something i have worked on a long time.

what DOES one do when words change? one day this is said, one day that and others want me so badly they spend their time on here talking to me, trying to get me to see im wrong.

look to the behaviors. do they back up words? is your SO sweet to you but rude to the waitress? does he discuss his childhood fondly or avoid it? same with his exs...respectfully or nasty? how is his relationship with his parents? how does he relate it? (using "he" as generic and time saving..insert she if one needs to)

how do they treat strangers? do they do the "mean girl" thing?

this is KEY to what a person is like inside. and it takes time to learn. this will not happen instantly or in a week. some are excellent at hiding their true selves but it will come out at odd times or people. waitresses, animals, etc. will they stop to help a hurt animal? are they ok when they have to compromise? do they lie or deny to avoid facing anything?

behaviors. time. keys to knowing someone.

interesting sarah. thanks for mentioning it. your words..."sociopaths can be very charming" just really hit me. because no, they cant. not below their surface and not long at a time.

ACOAs always learned to check behaviors and not words. promises broken? things like that. because we could never trust the words, we learned other ways to judge things. we learned how cheap words are. we learned what really matters, behavior. anyone can mouth it. but alcoholics and sociopaths and Ns just cant walk it for long.

when you think i dont listen, this should show you i do. i was trying to untwist something i dont even have twisted because another said i did. sheesh.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:05 am 
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I'm not trying to tell you that you are WRONG. That's too black and white, and it isn't true.
You started this thread asking for input on your untwisting process. I'm trying to sift through some potential twists that you may not see at this point.
I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong about how you feel about someone else. I'm trying to suggest and explore pitfalls that may distort and warp real situations into something bigger and more damaging than they need to be.

If I understand what you said...
Because you are an ACOA, you cannot take anyone's words at face value?
Because you are an ACOA, you need to constantly read between the lines?
Because you are an ACOA, you "translate" the words of another into what you think they were trying to say?
This leads my logic to read that you can never trust anything anyone else says to you.
Is this so? Wow. That sounds like a horrible way to live. Is that what they teach in the program, or is that what the program is helping you unlearn?

That may be where the twist really is...

My T has had me do some brain exercises when I start second-guessing the meaning of someone else's words - usually looking up each and every word in the sentence in a dictionary. I'm not allowed to look up any words other than the exact ones used. It's a pretty quick way for me to pick up where my mind is exaggerating or minimizing or catastrophising or just plain making stuff up. Is that what they actually said? No. So why make it worse than it is? 'Cause...

Y'see, not everybody out there is like my mom. Matter of fact, most people AREN'T like her. Most of the people I've observed out in the world usually say pretty much what's on their mind. There may be some fudging to avoid conflict or to smooth difficulties. There may be some mis-speaking and misunderstanding, but most people aren't really out to lie and deceive and torment us. They aren't wired to P/A us into submission. People tend to be mostly harmless, unless I decide to believe otherwise. If I'm looking for persecutors, I see them everywhere...but if I'm looking for reasonably decent human beings, I find lots of them out there too.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:28 am 
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i was talking about the context sarah meant when she said sociopaths can be charming. that went into how to decide which to believe when on diff occasions someone goes from i dont care about her to i dislike her to i did care about her.

some of us find it very hard to understand which words to believe. so i shared my POV of behaviors is my key to understanding someone.

i never said EVERYONE. you added that in. the trait in me comes from my ACOA stuff. most of us who are ACOA have it in some form or another.

please add in the entire context of what i meant on how i decide what to believe in this situation. the discussion was-- i was twisted in thinking im not liked. since i do tend to talk a bit intense, i phrased it as blatant dislike. i got challenged on that and thought ok, am i twisted? and tried to untwist it. reality check, as it were.

i was using public forum for this but some of the past chat has been in private to me on trying to get me to see im wrong in "assuming dislike". indeed, its almost fanatical to get me to see how wrong i am. this shares how i came to my conclusions i am not wrong in my own beliefs.

"""""If I understand what you said...
Because you are an ACOA, you cannot take anyone's words at face value?
Because you are an ACOA, you need to constantly read between the lines?
Because you are an ACOA, you "translate" the words of another into what you think they were trying to say?
This leads my logic to read that you can never trust anything anyone else says to you.
Is this so? Wow. That sounds like a horrible way to live. Is that what they teach in the program, or is that what the program is helping you unlearn?""""

no, you misunderstood what i meant, minx. i did not mean that at all. it would be a horrible way to live and can be, for sure. sometimes unconciously, we (ACOAs) do it and sabotage relationships for many years.

i will share a bit of what i believe about giving trust. i believe its earned, not a right. i believe it takes time. we each have our own time table for it depending on our past and our self esteem. and i believe behavior over a period of time is the best way to gauge what a person is like. some can fool others for a long time. some cant. some dont need to at all.

the program helped me learn to find my own way of trust and believeing something. does my ACOA still come into it? of course. i work on not letting it but using the steps i learned to gauge another. it is quite hard for those of us in this place. the ACOA place. maybe partly because we couldnt trust ordinary words. we learned to see behaviors. we also had to unlearn the less useful coping skills. we had to learn to be ok with our beliefs, as many would tell us how wrong we were as children of alcoholics. (excusing dad, mom, granpa, whoever by saying oh, he loves you and MEANT to come to your party, as a example. we were taught to not trust our own instincts or have our hurts.. and they were never validated because others were too busy enabling the A)

does this help make it clearer? i was not using the term everyone. you did. but. for a unhealed ACOA, this behavior is very subconcious and very damaging in our lives.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:19 pm 
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I'm trying to sift through some potential twists that you may not see at this point.
I'm not trying to tell you that you are wrong about how you feel about someone else. I'm trying to suggest and explore pitfalls that may distort and warp real situations into something bigger and more damaging than they need to be.


I think you've ignored that, Jody, and focused instead on something relatively unimportant by posting how you didn't say EVERYONE who's an ACOA would behave this way. You implied it. But that's neither here nor there. What about the POINT Minx was making?

Quote:
I'm not trying to tell you that you are WRONG. That's too black and white, and it isn't true.


Quote:
My T has had me do some brain exercises when I start second-guessing the meaning of someone else's words - usually looking up each and every word in the sentence in a dictionary. I'm not allowed to look up any words other than the exact ones used. It's a pretty quick way for me to pick up where my mind is exaggerating or minimizing or catastrophising or just plain making stuff up. Is that what they actually said? No. So why make it worse than it is?

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:11 am 
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Actually, neither of my posts in this thread used the word "everyone".

I'm still confused...In previous threads you say you act the way you do sometimes because of your complex PTSD. You've spoken about Al-Anon. Now you mention ACOA. I can understand that these things can overlap. But how many labels do you need to sort through? Does it matter that much what the problem is called? Or can healing occur independent of labels?

But now I'm back off topic again...I don't think you're wrong that there are people out there who don't like you.
I know that there are people out there who don't like me. Where I get tripped up is when I think I had nothing to do with it.

Now, hold on - I didn't say I was responsible for them not liking me! Oh, no. That's their choice, their reaction, their stuff. BUT I have nearly always contributed something to the situation. Very rarely am I a completely innocent victim. That's where I need to look at "my stuff" and see what (if anything!!) I might wish to do differently in the future. What have I been doing to add to the situation?
I don't get anywhere with "well, he did this!" or "but she did that!". Things don't "just happen" to me anymore. When I was a child? Yes, but I'm an adult now. Most anything that "just happens" in my interactions with people was a result of some action, choice or belief of mine. If the same sort of thing "just happens" to me a lot, there's DEFINITELY something I'm contributing. My life is a lot more peaceful and manageable if I can get a handle on where I got off balance.

I cannot afford to let the actions, opinions or approval of another person drag me back into my own unhealthy behaviors or beliefs. In some ways, it doesn't matter what they did or are doing. What matters is what I'M doing. Recognizing the part that i play is a huge step toward freedom. Freedom from being a victim, freedom from feeling persecuted, freedom to escape a huge chunk of the drama that used to define my life.

Sometimes it's just as simple as using really emotionally loaded words to describe a situation. When I use emotionally charged words, I tend to become more emotional. as I get more emotional, my ability to remain calm and reasonable diminishes. The more I work myself up about a situation, the more likely I am to run into some sort of conflict.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:46 pm 
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ah, lets reword all this.

you said anyone, actually. i should have used your exact wording. """"Because you are an ACOA, you cannot take anyone's words at face value?
Because you are an ACOA, you need to constantly read between the lines?
Because you are an ACOA, you "translate" the words of another into what you think they were trying to say?
This leads my logic to read that you can never trust anything anyone else says to you.""""

anyone==everyone...whatever. its the same thing basically. you said anyone. i never said that. i said my trust is my stuff and about me. will i usually trust completely most people? no.

i totally agree with some of what you said, minx. what i was saying i am not gonna own is someone's behavior which is their choice to something i do. a far cry from me being totally 100% innocent of anything. again, diff wording. regardless what i do, i wont own anothers choice. regardless of what THEY may do, they wont own my choice.

al anon is because i am married to a A. ACOA is because i am a adult child of a alcoholic...my dad. CPTSD is the accumilation of both these. its easier to type than the whole thing. easier to use the initials. does this explain that? if you dont care for me using it, im sorry. it helps me enormously. fact...ACOAs have certain traits. argue that with the people who run the stuff. al anon is when i or someone must live with a A. same theory as AA for As. CPTSD is chronic over time abuse and its ramifications. i agree with it, if you dont thats your choice entirely. i dont drag anyone with me to the things im in. i do use their logic and beliefs a lot. thats because they help me heal.

i knew nothing about ACOA for many years. learning about it answers tons of questions for me and my traits. it ISNT the label, it shows me where my negative traits come from,why, and thus i can change them when i dont need them any longer as bad coping mechanisms. . it works for me. if someone doesnt like i use them, then im sorry they dont. i dont tell others to live how i do. i just relate what has worked for me.

your right. "what matters is what I am doing"/ that is where i got tired of hearing "because you did this, jody, jane doe did x". bullshit. because i did x, i was wrong. however, i will not own her/his behaviors also. that is the crux of the issue. "if you --jody--hadnt done this..jane/john wouldnt have done that". bullshit. i did my own stuff and i own it. i dont own what they chose to do or not do. they shouldnt own mine either. it works both ways.

i have not sought out some views given me. they have been sent to me in hopes im gonna agree and take all the blame. wont happen. i am no longer the victim. and i wont go back to being one. my gut knows this. its been a long road to learn, i wont give it up ever again.

btw, i am healing. by tons. the labels only helped me concrete "i feel this" or "i behave this way" and change it.

hope this helps clarify it a bit for ya.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:15 pm 
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if you dont care for me using it, im sorry.

Quote:
i agree with it, if you dont thats your choice entirely.

Quote:
if someone doesnt like i use them, then im sorry they dont.

Phrases like that sound defensive to me. Is there something to defend against?
I did not say anything one way or the other about whether I did or didn't like your labels.
I said I was confused.

But you may recall, I'm not one to use a lot of labels. I just don't get that. To me, labels can become a set of boxes to stuff ideas in that get in the way of my big recovery picture. I see it all as the same recovery. It's the same way I feel about diagnoses. It's a great starting point, but it doesn't mean much for me beyond that. I can get confused when I hear people start tossing words around. As in - is this new? did they change the DX? Did they find something else? Is the old stuff still good or not?

Not to mention keeping track of it all...let's see...I believe my full pedigree would read:
I'm an ACOA with BPD and SchPD, I'm in AA, dating an A and I probably need some AlAnon, too.
See, when I say it all like that, I feel like I'm really screwed up and I have a lot of problems. But that's just me.

Really the only problem I have is ME.
Yet, if it helps you to put a name to your problems, then by all means do it!

I see something here:
Quote:
that is where i got tired of hearing "because you did this, jody, jane doe did x". bullshit. because i did x, i was wrong. however, i will not own her/his behaviors also. that is the crux of the issue. "if you --jody--hadnt done this..jane/john wouldnt have done that". bullshit. i did my own stuff and i own it. i dont own what they chose to do or not do. they shouldnt own mine either. it works both ways.

I'm thinking about the recent posts about people not cleaning up their dishes. It would seem that behavior annoys quite a few people (including me). Certainly we all do, in some way, choose to be annoyed at the behavior. So I fuss and yell...
But what about the guy leaving the dirty dishes around? how would it feel if he said "Why do you keep getting annoyed with me? What you do and how you feel is YOUR responsibility. Nothing I do can make you feel anything. I'm going to keep leaving dishes out because your reaction is not my responsibility."

Technically, he's right. How we react is our own stuff.
But...doesn't his choice of behavior contribute to the issue?
Certainly, my yelling shows disrespect for him
But...doesn't his insistence that his behavior doesn't concern me show disrespect to me?
Does my choice of behavior mean that his choice of behavior is oK?

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:27 pm 
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I am only following some of the replies in this thread but this one struck me as significant:

Minx wrote:
Quote:
that is where i got tired of hearing "because you did this, jody, jane doe did x". bullshit. because i did x, i was wrong. however, i will not own her/his behaviors also. that is the crux of the issue. "if you --jody--hadnt done this..jane/john wouldnt have done that". bullshit. i did my own stuff and i own it. i dont own what they chose to do or not do. they shouldnt own mine either. it works both ways.

I'm thinking about the recent posts about people not cleaning up their dishes. It would seem that behavior annoys quite a few people (including me). Certainly we all do, in some way, choose to be annoyed at the behavior. So I fuss and yell...
But what about the guy leaving the dirty dishes around? how would it feel if he said "Why do you keep getting annoyed with me? What you do and how you feel is YOUR responsibility. Nothing I do can make you feel anything. I'm going to keep leaving dishes out because your reaction is not my responsibility."

Technically, he's right. How we react is our own stuff.
But...doesn't his choice of behavior contribute to the issue?
Certainly, my yelling shows disrespect for him
But...doesn't his insistence that his behavior doesn't concern me show disrespect to me?
Does my choice of behavior mean that his choice of behavior is oK?


I was very clear when setting a boundary by stating exactly what I would do should certain things happen and then I did exactly what I said I would do when those things happened (repeatedly). In this situation, I would have to say that the other person specifically chose the particular consequences since the skills needed to successfully predict the outcome were not even necessary when the consequences of the behavior were already clearly defined for her.

I think in the past the example of yelling "fire" in a theater has been used. If a person yells "fire" in a crowded theater, the result will be that the crowd of people in the theater will head for the nearest exit in great haste, possibly hurting others in their attempt to flee. The person who yelled "fire" can claim that they had every right to use the word and yell it wherever they choose, and yet there are predictable consequences to using (yelling) that particular word in that location under those circumstances. Most people would not choose yelling "fire" in a crowded theater as a means of expressing their freedom of speech. They would consider the consequences of their actions before acting on them and they would suffer the consequences if they made a poor choice.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:00 pm 
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minx,

of course it is a or can be a 2 way street. like my H is, this only works if both will do it. he wont, and i have asked plenty of times what exactly am i doing or why is someone ---hmm what word is allowed here so as to avoid the jody they didnt say that crap?---asked someone why i seem to set them off? no answers. aqua didnt,,,no one else has.

in a adult situation, 2 people can discuss how they feel and each will compromise to help the other. the bottom line is however, each is responsible for their choice of action.

in good relationships, they work because of compromise. each listens, each hears, each responds in a non selfish way.

but when one wont follow, it becomes up to one what they would choose to do or not do.

no,i wasnt feeling defensive. maybe it came out that way in type, but its how i talk and i type a lot how i talk.

i think i recall you didnt like labels and i surely understand your point. for me, it works. not as a label as such, as more a guidepost to show me what i do, why and how to change it to a positive side. i should say they are guideposts...not labels.

al anon is great stuff and altho i havent been in the ACOA room, they have one. i dont see it as labels, i see it as me wandering confused in a dark forest, wondering wtf was wrong with me and finding a map saying do you do this? check there---->/ but that is how i heal and i only do this for me and what works for me best.

giving me a Dx felt so good. because i wasnt generally crazy or a bad person, i had this and this due to that and that and it was all fixable. we are just diff. :)

""""Technically, he's right. How we react is our own stuff.
But...doesn't his choice of behavior contribute to the issue?
Certainly, my yelling shows disrespect for him
But...doesn't his insistence that his behavior doesn't concern me show disrespect to me?
Does my choice of behavior mean that his choice of behavior is oK?""""

cool example! his choice of behavior contributes to your issue. BUT, the issue is why does it bother you? if you see a lack of respect in it, then by all means (and assuming its a adult, 2 way mature relationship) discuss it such: i feel disrespected when you dont pick up your dirty dishes because it means extra work for me.

now he/she can choose several options. lets assume he heard. he may well, as a caring adult, say oh i didnt know you felt that way! i will do my best to pick them up from now on. just remind me if i forget. and you, calmly, maybe making a joke, say hon, here is your plate and glass! please put it up! (feeling disrespected is your own feeling from the act) compromise by 2 adults acting adult.

now he could say...listen bitch, its your job to clean up after me! im the king of the castle! in which case you then have choices, to pick it up and let it go or leave them laying till they mold...since he didnt hear what you said.

its much better to say WHY you dont like the dishes around, rather than a "YOU" statement, thus owning your feelings.

and yes, dishes around or not, you must take note and own why it bugs you. and how you approach the issue, do you yell "you slob! why cant you pick up your crap!" (not helpful...not owning how you feel, blaming, judging.) or you can say...i really would like if you picked up those dishes and helped me a bit--it would be so sweet of you) note...no judging, no blaming, simple asking.

now with my H, nothing works. he picks up some days, some he doesnt. i had to decide how i would handle it. waste energy yelling? owning his stuff? asking wouldnt help. so i usually pick em up, sometimes i leave em if im totally busy. trying to communicate with him doesnt work.

it has taken me years to get this far about him. nothing said works. nothing asked works. what he is told today is gone tomorrow, in his mind. he has several overlapping mental issues, he is a A, and he is also what i consider borderline stupid. lol. i had to decide how i would respond and let most of it go.

sometimes, dishes are just not worth a struggle over. we need to pick our battles, unless we have a wonderful adult person with us who listens and we say it where someone will listen.

take your choice minx. i worked on this a long time in counseling. how to communicate, why, etc. my old T busted my ass and i learned a ton. not to mention communication classes, which teach this.

to answer ya, its a bit of both but his dishes are not your issue unless you make it such. your emotion TO it is your choice. you will never make another person do a thing. you can ask in a adult, positive way. and if they hear ya and care, great! if not, its up to you how you feel.

btw denim, i do not care if you post in my threads. i do not care what you say to me or about me. your choice. i dont recall hearing/seeing the post about that if i post in your thread to another person, you will jump my ass for days about how negative a person i am, but hey, its all cool. i would never do it back at you. life is too short for this crap. i have taken much worse in my life. do what you choose, regardless of what i do or dont do. :) wont bother me at all.

minx, because life is so very short and precious, choose your stuff wisely. is it worth yelling over? or hurting someone? etc etc. make sure, because we never know when we cant take our words back and its too late.

its all intermingled, but ultimately, whatever your SO does, how you feel about it is your choice. why? because thats YOURS. your feelings. not anothers. it may be disrespect from the other, but its still your choice how you feel about it.

hope this helped?

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:00 am 
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btw minx, i see your point about using certain words can influence how one thinks or feels.

a lot depends on how one talks, i think. and if it is needed to be changed. i note here a lot use the least "expressive" words possible, im not sure why, maybe for the reason you described. i tend to use more expression. shrug* i tend to be more emotional than many here in general. sometimes it seems to me instead of regulating emotions, some here want to eliminate it as a way to cope. dunno...

some write so wooden, i imagine in my head they are robots like data on whatever that show is called...they are androids. i always wonder if they are the same in person. people like me always seem to threaten people like that.

i have a hard time relating to those people. some write like i do...i find it easier to hear those people.

just diff in people, i guess.

is that why some dont want me using more intense language descriptions? i have gotten it from the same people in the past...getting onto me for certain nouns or adjectives i use...i know some in real who seem very threatened by emotion...it reeks to them of loss of self control.

anyways, i did see your point on that.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:49 am 
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I agree with you that emotions should be regulated instead of stuffed or denied.
When you see me using neutral words, when you see me NOT expressing a lot of emotion, you see one of the tools I use to regulate my emotions.
Quote:
i tend to use more expression. *shrug* i tend to be more emotional than many here in general

Well, you tend to SHOW or EXPRESS more emotion. You might be surprised to see how much emotion can hide underneath some carefully crafted words. :D

When I suggest that you rethink the words you use, it's because I've noticed a parallel in myself between emotionally charged words and my emotionally charged state of mind. If I keep my words neutral, I am better able to keep my emotions balanced. When I choose to use really expressive words and phrases, those pump energy into my emotions. Using really emotional language is (for me) a way to keep myself fired up, to keep that emotional roller coaster running.

If I say "You dislike me" it's easy enough for me to feel as if that's not a really big deal.
If I say "You hate me" I get a lot more worked up and angry and upset and scared and all the rest of it.

When my life was laced with drama, I spoke dramatically. As I've learned how to balance and ground myself, I use much more balanced language. It doesn't mean that I don't feel! It means that I don't want my emotions to run my life anymore, so I refuse to give them center stage.

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 Post subject: Re: undo the twist ok here goes
PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:40 am 
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good points, minx. thanks for sharing them.

this goes back to my moms teachings, tho. so i must find a balance. it echoes a lot in some of the stuff i read here.

i like myself...unfortunately for you all ...lol...i like to feel life and such. also part of being a sagittarius...

i will just have to look for a balance with what i want for me and what everyone else can live with.

something my H hasnt figured out..which is most of life actually lol...is that the more he goes overboard to make sure i know how he sees me the less it matters to me. its just how much can i listen to "your such a loser" before it loses its meaning? ya know. after awhile it just becomes funny to me. a side effect of abuse i didnt count on. i automatically become defensive as to protect myself, then it just becomes funny. i guess because its said for HIS benefit, rather than mine. it isnt helpful, there is no compromise in it, its just a rant on how he sees me. i know, i heard it the first 100 times.

that becomes a problem for me when someone is actually trying to help, rather than just preach at me what they think.

after tons of negative shit, it loses its ability to hurt or matter. i just dont listen or absorb it. . its also quite pointless as a help tool. i wonder how many people dont understand that when they do it.........i just become immune to it as its phrased.

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