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 Post subject: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:01 am 
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Okay, I'm writing this because one form of untwisting is talking to others about whether or not what you're feeling is valid. I recognize that often times I invent things, or blow them out of proportion in mind, and literally can't see reality.

Things were going great in my life, then last night I completely lost it with Josh, and told him it was over. I realized soon after that, that my response, whether it was the right one or not, was completely impulsive and that means not a good idea.

Here's the thing about Josh- he's a great guy, been very patient and loving all through my issues. But he has his own, and his hugest one is this inabillity to gain closure from past relationships. He was in a serious relationship two and a half years ago, and she broke it off, and he's never gotten over that. He can't let anyone replace her emotionally in his life, yet I'm there, and he struggles to reconcile this fact, going back and forth between "I care about you a whole lot and you're my future" and belittling what we have.

If I follow his actions, they say he's very serious about me. We've been together two years, it's been long distance, he's made efforts to come see me, to help me come see him, he's put up with my abuse on him even when it was so bad it was a couple times a day, he's never once threatened to leave, he's only ever said he'd leave if I really believed it was best for me.

But sometimes his words don't follow that pattern. As I said, he'll try and make light of what we are, we're just "friends" or he'll tell me how yeah he cares about me, but the previous girl was completely different, SHE was his ultimate relationship. Not just out of the blue or anything, but if he's confronted with stating how he feels about me, the more he's pushed, the more he argues for how he's only with me because it's logical, and isn't that so much better than emotion anyway?

Part of the issue came up because this past few days he brought up marriage again. He has known for years I want to get married to him, but told me no, he doesn't want that. I've struggled to accept it. Then he brings it up all of a sudden and thats great, but it makes me suspicious of everything.

Then he was talking to his ex last night. He swears up and down and sideways all he needs is to talk to her sometimes, and she also claims she has absolutely no desire to ever get back together with him. But then I simply cannot understand why he needs to talk to her. And why that's important to our future. He claimed last night when she and he were getting along, he can see a future with ME. But when they're not, he can't. He claims it's just how he is, that he feels like if he can't make that relationship last forever, like it was supposed to, even last forever as just casual friends, then he won't bother with any other relationships because none will last. I told him that was unacceptable. I also said some things I shouldn't have about how much I actively despise his ex for no reason other than how much he loves her. I won't deny it, I am consumed with jealousy over what she means to him. Even though in actions he did nothing more for her than he has done for me, in fact he's done more for me, in words he makes it clear she meant a lot more.

I don't actually remember how the conversation turned into me breaking up with him. I tend to actually lose my memory of the climax of confrontations quite frequently. I just remember telling him my mind was made up, it was over, and he asked if I was leaving him or not, and I interpreted that as him pushing me go through with it, so I said yes, I'm leaving.

In other words, I was not very impeccable with my word, because while part of me thought I should leave him, not all of me was sure of that.

I realized this later, and also started to worry about him. He deals very badly with loss, as you might have guessed from his ex, and even through he swore to me if I ever left him it wouldn't matter, I wasn't 100% sure. So I called him back, and he sounded terrible. All hollow and empty, like I hadn't heard him sound since the breakup with his ex. He claimed it wasn't just cause of me, that it was cause things went badly with talking with his ex too, he felt like he lost both of us in one night. I tried to get him to just say he really cared about me and needed me and wanted me to come back and he refused to. He kept saying now I've left him it would be better on me if I didn't try to come back. I pointed out that yes I said I was leaving, but he knows me, he knows I'm impulsive, that it would be different if I'd told him for a week I was thinking about it then left him, but he casn figure if I say something spontaneous like that, it doesn't mean a whole lot if not maintained. He claimed it didn't matter if I left him for an hour or for years, it was the same.

He tried to argue both for what a terrible thing I did, but also that it didn't really matter, I wasn't all that important to him. That wasn't what I could handle hearing because my state was rapidly approaching a break down.

Now, I'm pretty sure this was a bad move on my part, but it seemed the only option. I could have controlled my breakdown, not had one, gone to bed. But instead I made the choice to go ahead and release the anxiety and hysteria, partially because that was so much easier than controlling it, and partially because I know that the only thing guranteed to get Josh to stop being cold is to be in dire need of help. It's something that made me turn abusive when it came to breakdowns last year, using them when I wanted sympathy, love or affection. It's not the only time Josh will show all those things, but if he's acting coldly towards me, if he's trying to belittle what we have, if his words are pushing me towards breaking up with him, I know a breakdown will turn everything around and he'll be comforting again, and the focus will be on getting me better, not on how much he does or doesn't love me.

Anyways, it's all a very unhealthy situation. The past couple weeks it hasn't been unhealthy like that at all. It's been normal, but then last night it all blew up, and granted it started because of me. But I don't know what to think of all of it. JOsh is either so self destructive he would rather act like he doesn't care and lose me, or he genuinely doesn't care much if he loses me.

Since I'm oriented towards believing no one loves me and no one wants me, I tend to see it as the second one. So I'm asking objective thoughts because I can't see it clearly. :S

But it scares me too, I guess, to talk about it, because I'm so afraid people will say "yep, you're right, he doesn't care about you, you hafta dump him, he's the problem with your life." Because that would turn my worst fear into reality.

If it is reality, it's reality, just throwing that out there.


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 Post subject: Re: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 8:55 am 
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We're the last folks who would be able to determine reality for you. You're the one living it so you're the only one really suited to make those kinds of determinations.

Setting aside for a minute the differences between his words and his deeds, what do YOU feel about him? Nobody will ever be perfect. If you take off any rose-colored glasses and really look at him -- talking to the ex, saying things that belittle the relationship, etc. -- is he the person you want to be with? Not the potential mate he could become but the person he is RIGHT NOW.

You can't really know what either of you mean to him. I don't think he really knows so how could you?

A question you might want to ask yourself is: Are you in the midst of an "I hate you, don't leave me" bout? I used to break up with A every two weeks (according to him; I say it was like every 6 weeks) and he got so used to the push/pull that he stopped believing me when I said it. He did, though, get to a point where he was tired of hearing it and put me on notice. ("One day, enough will be enough.")

Are you using "he handles break-ups badly" as a way to get back together with him without owning up to your own feelings? Like "I want to get back with him but if I tell him that & he says no, then I'll be doubly hurt but if I tell him I'm concerned about how HE is doing & he lets me back in, I might get what I want without having to expose myself to potential rejection."

He may be emotionally numb right now, rather than truly done & over with things with you. Either way, you can't truly know and you can't control when or how he'll tell you his "final answer." All you can do right now is focus on getting yourself through this.

When you work The Five Steps on this issue and the surrounding issues, don't forget to check for the Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking and make sure you keep the Four Agreements at the forefront.

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 Post subject: Re: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:17 am 
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I guess my problem is yes, I am in the midst of an "I hate you, don't leave me" episode. This is hardly the first I've had, and I always get over it and get back together with him and wish I'd never done it in the first place.

But during it, I convince myself NOW I am seeing clearly, now I am in my right mind, and the rest of the time I'm not. Even though right now I still don't want to leave him or lose him, but I feel I have to. Trouble is the relationship is far too closely linked to a behavior pattern of mine I've had all my life. I destroy anything really meaningful to me, then can't deal with the consequences of that loss. I feel like I can't possibly have something good, there must be bad somewhere so I feel like I need to root it out and expose it, and in doing so, whether or not the bad is there, it gets created.

Josh is so much a part of the future I want, and has been for years. Unlike other relationships, no matter what happens, my feelings for him have never wavered. He says he wishes he could feel more for me, too, but that I should be grateful to have the person I love, even if they don't love me back. I don't like that. I don't feel grateful, but maybe I should. I'm so consumed with bitterness about his ex I obsess over it, then accuse HIM of obsessing with her, when in truth I probably think about her as often as he does.

I recognize that I tend to put our whole relationship in the twisted thinking category of if it's not perfect, it's horrible. I know thats not true, rationally. There are a million good things about it, many which other relationships of the type I want, don't have. But there are also all the bad things.

I guess maybe I do want the impossible. I want all the good of being with Josh, who's the only guy I have any even minimal interest in (I work and interact closely with many other guys, some very attractive, none which I feel even the slightest interest in because Josh is all I want to be content), without the bad of his weird hangups. I feel like his hangups and his flaws are so much worse than other guys', but maybe that's not true.


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 Post subject: Re: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Well, personally, I wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who's still hung up on his past girlfriend and still (he says) needs to talk to her. For me, that wouldn't be what I want in a relationship. It would be something less. I'm inclined to think that it wouldn't be a healthy relationship. I don't want someone who is settling for me because he can't have what he really wants.

I don't suggest others should think like me. I do see the value in asking other viewpoints, as you are doing. "The survey method" of untwisting. So I offer up my viewpoint in that spirit.

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 Post subject: Re: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 3:36 pm 
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ShadowChaser wrote:
He says he wishes he could feel more for me, too, but that I should be grateful to have the person I love, even if they don't love me back. I don't like that. I don't feel grateful, but maybe I should.

Check your pages. ;)

Is your Genuine Self really and truly okay with this concept?

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 Post subject: Re: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 6:24 pm 
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hey ShadowChaser ~

What Ash quoted from your last post above spoke to me, too.
Someone telling you that you 'should' do or feel a certain way is not respectful or accepting or a couple other things that don't jive with a truly caring relationship, imho. That someone being a person you're in love with, and that 'should' implying you settle - let alone be 'grateful' - for what he offers you - that's just plain hurtful, dear one.

I understand feeling in love with someone who cannot for whatever reason give 100% (or 80% or 50% or - in my case - even 20%) emotionally to being with me. I've lived where I took the 20% and ran with it, inflating it in my mind while I assumed the bulk of a presumed 50/50. I, too, needed to 'be there' for him... I thought he was the only person who would 'put up' with me and my reactionary behaviors... I couldn't be alone... I thought I was ok with what he could provide me.

Now I see through long-distance hindsight that this 'love' actually did nourish a big part of me. Unfortunately, it was my sense of incompetence, unworthiness, fear of being alone and failure that it fed. But that's me and mine.


SC, obviously no one here knows what's in Josh's mind. I'd say from what you've shared that he does certainly care about you. His coolness could be a result of the discussion between you or it may not have anything to do with you (which kinda hurts in its own way to think about) or ...might this be part of a dance the two of you move to?

Maybe this is a good time to reflect on any less-than-healthy patterns that may have evolved in your relationship. Maybe you might use this time to explore the effects of falling short of a natural desire to be the top girl on your guy's list.

( ( ((( ShadowChaser ))) ) )

~ jr

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 Post subject: Re: *sigh* sorry another one
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:45 am 
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Thank all very much for your thoughts. As I get better at controlling my emotional reactions, hopefully I will better be able to sort out facts and whats right, from what I feel or am afraid of or think I have to do.

As I said, I have two patterns in my twisted thinking that tend to run together in Josh and my relationship, which makes me clash with his own insecurities and way of being. Firstly, growing up I had this view of how love would be for me, and I always expected one day it would happen just like that, when I finally found someone I really loved. I found Josh, years ago, and nothing has happened how I assumed it would. I got frustrated and focused on how it wasn't perfect, how it should be, how he should be.

And on top of that is, as I spoke about before, the conviction I've grown up with, that whatever makes me happy in life I don't deserve. So when I AM happy with Josh, when we're enjoying each other and comfortable with each other, I start finding and doing things to mess that up. It's a recurring pattern, both in our relationship and in my life that when I am content, I break that down. I've lost many relationships because of that. Josh sticks by me, but it makes it tough for him, and horrible for me.

I went into this understanding he was a scarred person. He never decieved me, he was always honest that he simply doesn't know if he can get close to someone again like he was with his ex. He believes with all his heart that he needs to find some sort of closure with her, through the chats he has with her, then he'll get more comfortable with the future.

When I'm completly rational about the whole thing, I know that if he feels that strongly he needs this, then he needs something, and if he ends up with her at the end of it not me, then thats what was meant to be, but there is just as great a chance he'll eventually get his closure and end up with me.

But while he is guilty of the shoulds, so am I. I get bitter and resentful and obsess over how he should feel. He SHOULD love me more. He shouldn't care about her. He shouldn't be allowed to talk to her. Maybe all those are nice ideas, but they aren't reality.

My brother, who talks to Josh quite a bit, assures me Josh cares about me far more than he lets on. I don't know if that's just boundless optimism, or if he's right. He also tells me to cool it on the ex thing, that Josh needs this, and it's not gonna end badly for me. I trust my brother, I know he would never give me advice that wouldn't benefit me, but it's very hard for me to "cool it". :p

I should explain a bit about our relationship, too. It has always been understood between Josh and I that we would remain close no matter what, but if either of us found a romantic partner we felt more suited with, we would let the other go. I don't feel trapped in the relationship because I know if I met someone else Josh would let me go. I also know I have to do the same for Josh. Many would consider this weird, or a bad situation, but it's comforting to me at least, because I can't stand the intensely jealous relationships I see around me, where it's you're either with me or you're gone. I have a lot of guy friends, I work with a lot of guys, I know a lot of guys and yes I do keep an open mind. For a few months last year I dated someone else, I liked him, yeah, he was a lot of fun, but ultimately I don't see myself with anyone other than Josh.

I probably should have done this *before* telling Josh it was over and creating all that drama, but yesterday I was evaluating what I *really* want. In the past a few times I have been through hard breakups, but there was always that little part of me that when it was said and done and the person was gone, was relieved. So I asked myself yesterday, would I be relieved if it was over? Do I feel trapped? Do I not like where the relationship is going? The answer to all those questions was no. I didn't *want* to break up with him. I obsessed over the bad parts of who he is, then I told myself I *had* to break up with him, because thats what people do. I told myself it was the right thing even if it felt wrong.

But in evaluating whether it's something I should do, or just something maybe someone else would do in my shoes, I realized I was trying to act as someone else would act, but there's no one else here, just me and Josh, and neither of us wanted me to break it off.


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