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Perfect sense, and I'm relieved that seems to be what we are doing so far (as you have described it).

We are both 24

In general, I think it is best to discuss a boundary during times of peace, make it caring and compassionate, even solicit suggestions* from her about how she would deal with it.

S.E.T. is an excellent way to communicate a boundary [or any of the other communication techniques like DEARMAN (Linehan) or PUVAS (Mason/Kreger)]

Sympathy statement.
Empathy statement, followed by a
Truth Statement such as "but it is harmful to me to be on the receiving end of your frustration so it's important that I don't participate. How can I do this and not offend you at the same time? I care about you"

Then it is really up to you to follow through - and that can be compassionate, too.

Sympathy statement.
Empathy statement, followed by a
Truth Statement such as "but it is harmful to me to be on the receiving end of this frustration as we discussed, so I'm going to go to a movie. I'm really sorry you feel this way - I know it is hard. Love you, I'll be back soon. Bye."

This puts it to back her to resolve her own feelings - not use you. And it allows you to step out and keep perspective - not to go into "rescue" mode or start a dysfunctional interchange of justifications and debates, etc.

You will likely be challenged and you may hear words as you walk to the car... but I think this is the general idea. If you can do this in a caring way but with strength and conviction, it should help both of you. It won't change her... but at least you are providing the "structure" to discourage a dysfunctional exchange.

The question posed above (several posts up) - about the compartmentalization is a good one. She is all of the people you described.

If she is affected by BPD as the therapist suggested, or if there is the presence of some BPD traits... it's not really an "equal deal"... anymore than if you were gardening together and you had a broken arm and she didn't. To some extent, you will need to be a "caretaker" or guardian in this relationship.

That takes strength and perspective and patience and caring. Studies show that EOI (emotional over involvement) by the loved on is very helpful to a person affected by BPD. At the same time, enmeshment and confusing her stuff and your stuff is harmful for you.

It's a fine line to walk. You have to keep your head above water at all times - and right now your struggling with that. And I think that is partially what everyone is saying about working on yourself. Two people with broken arms would not plant a great crop. :-)

No simple answers...

Skippy

I tried to reply to this several times yesterday, but I just couldn't get my thoughts together!

The first thing I wanted to say is that there's some good info on setting boundaries here.

The second is that I find boundaries work best when they relate to behaviours that directly affect me. They don't work so well when they're telling my partner how she should overcome those behaviours (e.g. she has to go to therapy or AA). I found my partner is more willing to work on her issues when she's given the space to do it in her own way and figure out what works best for her. Also, if you insist on therapy, it's very easy for someone to turn up to all the sessions but not put any work in - so focusing on the problem behaviour itself is often a better move. I do still make suggestons about things that may help my partner, but I allow her to make her own choices. This is an important part of recovery when you think about it!

I'm not saying you shouldn't insist on therapy, just that that particular boundary didn't work so well for me. It may be different for you.

Best of luck!

Maybe it's because I'm not sure what EOI is in the clinical sense, but I question the usefulness of 'emotional over involvement' to aNyone in a relationship. Could this be expounded upon?


This, I think, is a great summation of possible results from reasonable boundaries.


~ jr

I agree with Jody. She explained it very well. Boundaries are about what and how much I will tolerate. If the person oversteps these, there must be consequences, and the same one each and every time, otherwise I am unbelievable and open the door to manipulation. Which is btw the main reason for lying. To get the partner to do certain things, to forgive, to stay, whatever. Yep, this sounds like how to deal with a challenging child and this is also how my daughter and I were told how to train our dogs..lol
Your GF is lucky in a way, most of us do not have a partner who is willing to travel this rocky road with us, at least I don't.
Hang in there and be strong!!!

one thing people seem to avoid telling you.

If you have a long relationship with someone who is BPD, and want to stay there, you are either BPD yourself or codependent. its time to wake up and smell the coffee.


lets see:
you don't have boundaries
you idealize her at times
you want to help her more than you want to help yourself
you're clingy beyond what's good for you
fear of abandonment

all are symptoms of BPD or codependent. you should look at your traits and see if you are also extremely impulsive, reckless and stuff like that because this is what separates codependent from BPD IMO.

I think there are two types of BPD (high functioning). The avoidant and the anxious. Men with BPD are usually the anxious type while women in my experience are 75/25 avoidant. the avoidant will go out of her way to disconnect form you when she goes through a "split" (change from white to black thinking) and it that moment can cheat or do anything, because you are gone to her and even worse. she wants to forget you. avoidant BPD claim you are smothering. I have discussed this phase a lot with BPD women.

So usually BPD avoidant women can only have a long term relationship with either a codependent man or an anxious BPD man. no one else would hold up or satisfy their desires of attention, no real fear of abandonment, partner putting up with everything she does, partner idealizing her.

take care of your personality.

I was just like you, making a list of my GF's BPD traits, and then I looked in the mirror.

let me tell you what I did: at the sign of danger to the relationship, first I tried to save the relationship and than I looked if staying was good for me. since usually the relationship was never safe I almost never got to the point of evaluating stuff with my head.

Do you do the same thing? fear of abandonment can be a bitch.

Would you say the reverse to anyone here, with BPD, who has a partner? That their partner must have BPD themselves or be codependent? I can think of people here who've really benefited from being in a relationship with someone healthy who has good boundaries. I think it's dangerous to make blanket statements like that.

I would say that if you're in a relationship with someone with BPD, you need to acknowledge your own issues and take care of your own mental health, absolutely.

I thought of something to add to this thread last night, before I read Yossarian's comment, and that was about change. I think it's generally a mistake to go into a relationship needing or expecting the other person to change. Not everyone with BPD recovers, and for those who do, it can take time. I think generally you need to accept your partner as they are, be happy with the relationship as it is, and put boundaries in place to make both of those things possible.

Cheating is not something I personally would accept, but that's Alfe's choice to make.

Of course, if someone's only just been diagnosed or is just starting treatment, you have hope that they can change, and you want to give them a chance. I know for a long time that was what kept my relationship alive! I think if you're not happy with the relationship as it is, but you believe your partner can and will change, it can be a good idea to set some sort of time limit. To decide how long you're willing to wait before things need to be better for you to stay. Otherwise, you could be waiting for ever - or you could be lucky, as I was.

Echoes

Maybe so, I dont doubt that some co-dependance has developed from my end, but thats love. I wouldnt be here if I didnt love her, and I wouldnt love her if I didnt feel some sort of deep attachment. If I was to make a list for myself I would probably find:

Anxious, nervous, dependant, afraid of abandonment - for the moment yes, but feelings pass.

I dont feel this way because I'm tied into loving this person out of obligation or fear of being alone, I know well I can survive alone. I feel this because I have decided to enter this with someone I love, with no idea where it might be going, with many possible outcomes. But its my decision to make, and regardless of how it comes across, I am taking care of myself - I cant do that completely until I am somewhat comfortable with the way things are going with us. I'm no expert, but I would imagine you could find some of the characteristics you mentioned in 8/10 partners from any relationship - call it what you want, the label doesnt matter to me, it might give us a base to work from, but it doesnt dictate my behavior towards her - the stories of people here, suggested techniques, and shared characteristics do.

What happened in your case? I could do with a story of hope

It's on the first page of this thread.

Sorry... screwed up the quotes there!

Sorry, I had it in my head that that was dramaqueen!

Would you say the reverse to anyone here, with BPD, who has a partner? That their partner must have BPD themselves or be codependent? I can think of people here who've really benefited from being in a relationship with someone healthy who has good boundaries. I think it's dangerous to make blanket statements like that.[/quote]

Yeah, I was thinking similar. In particular, I was thinking of my husband. The BPD and codependency labels just don't fit him, not now, not in the past.

What Yossarian I think is true some of the time, but not all the time.

Oops... messed up the quote...

Lets get one thing straight - co-dependency does not equal love.




I sure as hell understand how you feel. all those emotions are VALID emotions. but, they have taken over your life and your descisions too much. that's the difference between a disorder and a trait. the difference between you and "8/10 people"

Note spooky sentence bolded above. you can't take care of yourself completely until you know what's going on between you? I can relate so deeply to that, but that is messed up.

dangerous? its only a pointer to take notice. everyone can think about it themselves. all I know is we are drown to someone similar to us.

If the "Non" had good boundaries to begin with he wouldn't be in an affair with a BPD person.



that is true in any point in life. not just in a relationship with a BPD. but that scenario gives you a mirror and more reason to change.


wanting others to change major things in them so that you'll be happier... and building on that... at some point its dependency/idealism.

I disagree with that strongly. It is an issue for many nons, but as I said above, I've known people on this board with BPD who had partners with good boundaries. I don't think it's fair to make assumptions about people based only on what mental health problems their partners have.


Yes, I agree with that. I think in my case, I loved my partner very much, and I desperately wanted her to get better for both our sakes, and I clung onto hope. I know our relationship wasn't always healthy. At some point, I had to accept that things might never change, and I asked myself would I be happy with that? and the answer was no.

But because my partner was in therapy and working on her issues, I decided to give her a chance. I actually set a time limit of six months, and decided if I still wasn't happy in the relationship after six months, I would leave. I communicated all this with my partner too... and I let her know what specific things were making me unhappy, so she knew what needed to change if she wanted me to stay. She did change, and we're still together.

I know many nons are not that lucky. I think it's a bad idea for your own happiness to depend on someone else changing. That's out of your control! But what I chose to do was wait for a set period of time to see how things panned out before making my decision.

I should add that my partner always wanted to change. That was a major factor in me believing she might. She accepted responsibility for her mental health issues and sought help, like many of the people here. But like any recovery process, there were setbacks involved, and it took time.

Its all relevant, I need some sound advice from all sides, and I appreciate you sharing it

I suspect, Yossarian, that you have too narrow a view of what people with BPD are like, and thus can't believe that someone with good boundaries would choose to be in a relationship with someone with BPD, and choose to stay. However, BPD has a lot of variation.

You might check out 256 Shades of BPD: Understand the diversity of the disorder and Four Divisions of BPD: A first-level distinction along the Borderline continuum here on BPDRecovery.com for a little bit about the variation in BPD.

Not everyone who has BPD is going to behave in such a way that no person with good boundaries would stay in that sort of relationship with them. And sometimes those good boundaries can help the person with BPD to be able to have a healthy, sane, relationship.

I'm not here to diagnose anyone, not here to throw out labels like "codependent" and such. I can only share my experience, strength and hope with others who may or may not identify with me. All ANY of us can truly speak to is ourselves. Perhaps we should all remember that.

In the last relationship I had, I had a friend of mine ask me one question.
If he never changes at all, if he stays exactly the way he is today, would you be happy?
I ignored that question for a few years. Didn't want to think about it, didn't want to hear it. Didn't like the answer I knew was true. Stuck it out for a total of seven on/off years...And in the end, I did choose to leave because he HADN'T changed. Wasn't going to change, didn't want to change.
But I had. The longer I worked on my own sanity and peace of mind, the gap between us continued to grow until I was able to face that old question and speak the truth to myself.

EVERYONE has something going on. I'm pretty sure that every human on the planet has some sort of issues. The question for us would be - can I live with this relationship the way it is today?

Stay or go doesn't matter as much as what we intend to do with ourselves. Even in a relationship with an emotionally unavailable, semi-abusive man, I was able to continue my own personal journey of recovery. Maybe not as quickly or thoroughly as I would have if I hadn't held on to that negative influence...but still moving forward. And over time, he became less intolerable because I wasn't playing the old games anymore. I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to sit here while you say those things. No I won't do that for you. Believe what you want. If you want to act that way, you can just go home. Not easy at all, but as I grew to fit my own skin, he had less and less power over me.

And I say this AS the BPD sufferer. I'm the one who's "sick".
Recovery is possible, but it is not guaranteed. It's a lot of hard work. Progress is not constant and there can and are backsteps. In some ways, I think it might have been easier with a supportive partner...but when I'm willing to do the work, I can improve my life.
Stay? Leave? It's a personal choice. In or out of a relationship, I will continue to have my issues until I do the work of balancing, centering and growing.

If it happens than they are not BPD anymore are they (do not fit the DSM).

Anyway the point is to give the original poster and other people something to think about. maybe I should have worded it more gently but when people say, "gosh, I'm deeply involved with a BPD", that's a sure sign one needs a good look in the mirror

I apprecaite what you're saying but to define a condition in those terms is every bit as dangerous. DSM may specify common characteristics, but an official diagnosis should not dictate behavior. I am here because I located stories of people with common experiences, partners with similar behaviors. Our experiences, and the necessary steps taken to recover (some successful, some not) are of use to me at this point, because I dont know what to do. A condition does not cease in the absence of certain behaviors, nor begin with the presence of some, a defined state should be an overview of the persons life experience, not the presence or absence of benchmark behaviors (however useful they may be for professional communication). The diversity of experience in here is amazing and should not be ignored.

Then ignore my advice at your own peril as it is based on experience.

I know myself how painful it is to actually soul search and deal your wounds. so if you don't I can understand that.

It is possible to do both