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Amanda
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Post subject: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:38 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 498
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WARNING: You mind find this post totally boring, but I'm sharing it (the process I went through) because it actually helped me to see how the concept of "radical acceptance" is such a poweful tool. I understand it so much better now. I have such a curious mind. It wants to understand and figure out why everything is the way it is and how everything works. I find myself getting frustrated when I don't get something. The scenario with my hand. Palm side down I am allowed to practice the motion of bending my wrist upwards, but palm side down, at this stage, I am not allowed to do the movement of bending my wrist downwards (only have 10 degrees of movement in the wrist anyway, compared to almost 80 in the good wrist - yikes!) Reverse it: Palm side up, I am allowed to do the motion of bending my wrist upwards (but if one keeps the hand in that position and turns it over it is in the same postion that it would be if I was bending my wrist downwards which I was told is a no-no.) Palm side up, I am not allowed to do the movement of bending my wrist downwards (but if one keeps the hand in that position and turns it over, it is in the same position that it would be if I was bending my wrist upwards.) So, I got completely confused and lost with this and spent hours figuring it all out, just needing to know why. I got hung up on the idea that it was certain wrist positions that weren't allowed, as opposed to the type of movements used to get the wrist into that position. I finally figured it out, that it had to do with the extensor tendons (back of hand) and the flexor tendons (palm of the hand.) I am not permitted at this stage to do any movements involving the use of extensor tendons, as I may undo the internal fibre-wire sutures that are holding the ECU tendon in place. It has been sutured to the other extensor tendons to stabilise it. The flexor tendons are used to make the movement bending wrist upwards, with palm side down. The extensor tendons are used to make the movement bending wrist downwards, with palm side down. It is the flexor tendon that controls the upward movement of the wrist, palm side up & the extensor that controls the downward movement of the wrist, palm side up. It wasn't so much that I wasn't allowed to have my hand in certain positions, it was the movement (and which tendons that were being used) that got the hand into the postion that was the concern. AFter I figured it all out, I sat here thinking "What in the heck was that all about?" Wouldn't it have been far easier for me to just accept what was said to me. This is what you can and can't do at this stage, and it just is! Could have saved myself a whole load of energy and time. Amanda, sometimes things just are, and sometimes there can be no explanations. In this case there was, but in many others there are not. I think I finally "really got it" the concept of radical acceptance, and how holding onto the "why's and need for understanding" (especially when there are no concrete reasons/answers) can keep one stuck.
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confused1
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:55 am |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:40 am Posts: 32
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IMO - Radical acceptance takes a high level of trust. I, also, have had experiences where I can accept something intellectually but I have a very diificult time "seeing" how it relates to me or how to apply the knowledge (hung up on the why's).
Specifically - my W has told me for years that she is incapable of feeling or treating me like the people that abused me. I can accept this intellectually but I have been unable to apply it. It wasn't until going through the "seperate stuff" tools that I realized that I ALWAYS think of her in the "us" catagory. I was so heavily scripted by my M that I did not have seperate stuff (particularly feelings and emotions) that I really had no concept of what my W really meant. I am a visual thinker. The simple drawings in the tools "showed" me exactly what she has been telling me all this time!
So - I am agreeing with you that I could have saved myself years of stress if I had just accepted, without any doubt, what she had told me. The real issue (challenge) for me here is that I refused to trust what she said. I guess when we (I) go into a situation where radical acceptance is helpful it is critical to decide, "I trust this person and what they are telling me".
BTW I am new, not only to this group, but also to forums in general. In your Peeling back the layers I think I kinda got off track. I hope I did better here.
_________________ Let no way be your way, let no limitations be your limitation
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jodyisme
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:34 pm |
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:00 pm Posts: 1800 Location: texas
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i like to know the whys. i liked to hear your explanation! makes sense to me. i dont see it as a bad thing. i would have wondered also.
acceptance or not, the only person i trust implicely is myself. its just safer in the long run to stay alive. thus i look up everything online to see and learn.
"""""I am agreeing with you that I could have saved myself years of stress if I had just accepted, without any doubt, what she had told me.""" hell, just reading that scares me to death. i will never be there, as i dont want to.
sticks 2 cents in slush fund*
_________________ "no one can walk on you unless you lay down first" -old saying-
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EllenKMR
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:09 pm |
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Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:00 pm Posts: 991
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I'm thinking, both situations, it's not so much about accepting what is, it's about whether or not you can trust another person's perspective. Radical acceptance, as I understand it, would be, in Confused1's example "I radically accept that my wife says she won't treat me like that." Believing that or not is a matter of trust, not radical acceptance. And it's partly self-trust -- trusting oneself to beable to judge another as trustworthy.
Amanda, I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to know why, on what the doctor told you. To me that's natural and normal. Doctor's aren't God. They are knowledgable people who are helping us, not authority figures to blindly obey.
_________________ Ellen K.
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Bordergirl
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:21 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 2184 Location: Near the Cornfields
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I agree with Ellen. I always question my doctors. I want to know the whys and wherefores. It's my body and I have a right to know.
I would use Radical Acceptance in a situation like this: I was pregnant and the baby died. There wasn't a "reason" for it - it just happened. The cord got pinched and he lost oxygen. I could have spent years and years trying to figure out what happened. Was I a bad person? Did I do something wrong? On and on and on. Or I could just Radically Accept that this horrible thing happened, and that's the way it is. I may not like what happened, but I need to accept it. Then I can move on with my life.
Now if your doctor told you that you might not have use of your hand, you would then question the doctor as to what happened. If he told you there was nothing you could to to regain that use, then you might use Radical Acceptance to accept the diagnosis and it is what it is. Do you see the difference?
I think it's really cool that you're exploring this interesting subject. I find Radical Acceptance to be so exciting! For me, it frees me up. It keeps me from spending energy thinking and worrying about things that I have no control over anyway. I have a book about it that my T had me buy. I'm still reading it - I forgot the name but it's by an author named Tara Brach. It's a little soft-covered book and very easy to read and understand the concepts.
_________________
......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)
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Amanda
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:21 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 498
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It may or may not have been perfectly normal to question the advice I was given about my wrist, but the actual point of my post was, after working through all the "why's and need to understand" (and all the associated feelings) it led me to a better understanding of why sometimes radical acceptance can be the more effective path. I'm aware that it is more often used in situations where there is no concrete understanding (such as the loss of a child, or a parent abandoning a child) but it was seeing how much time, effort and energy I'd expended on finding the answers, that allowed me to see more clearly how at times one can do the same with other issues, that might be more suited to radical acceptance. I think there is something to the "trust" issue that you mentioned confused1. I am having difficulty trusting the PT who gave me the information. When I first returned to physio after the op, she had me doing all these different movements and when I was yelling out in agony and saying it felt wrong, she then questioned herself, as to whether she was meant to be getting me to do certain types of movements, and suggested she'd better call my hand surgeon and check. She had had no prior experience with the type of surgical repair that I had done! When I returned for the next appointment, she then told me what I was and wasn't allowed to do. She'd actually had me doing stuff I wasn't supposed to be doing and I guess I got a little bit concerned, and wanted to check things out for myself, so it was clear in my head what was safe and what wasn't, and why. I think had I had more faith in her, I may not have gotten so hung up on needing to have answers. confused1- Hi and welcome! Your post to me in the other thread was great. I didn't purposely over-look it, but sometimes find when there are multiple replies to a post, I may only have the energy and time to focus on some of those points/replies. What you shared in this thread about "trust" has given me something to think about. Thanks.
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ibfuddled
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:36 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 491
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I really enjoyed this post, Amanda. Got a kick out of my vision of your discovery... Quote: After I figured it all out, I sat here thinking "What in the heck was that all about?" Wouldn't it have been far easier for me to just accept what was said to me. This is what you can and can't do at this stage, and it just is! Could have saved myself a whole load of energy and time. Gad, I hate it when that happens. Get myself all tied up in knots trying to figure it out and then realize it was all essentially irrelevant. Shake myself off like an ol' papa moose climbing up the river bank and giving everyone nearby a shower. For me, true Radical Acceptance is the cornerstone of all DBT and some CBT work. Such a simple concept, easy to understand cognitively, much tougher to understand emotionally and put into everyday practice. I guess the resource that helped me over was Linehan's video on the subject and the transcripts found here and there including at http://www.dbtselfhelp.com I had to watch the thing at least four times and then read through the transcript another couple times before it began to sink in for me. IMO, "acceptance" in this case is simply accepting the existence of a situation or circumstance to the point of not resisting it's existence. Because it's that resistance that is causing our pain. Easy enough when there is not much emotional load with the thing. (So cool that your experience with your tendons opened that window for you.) It seems so much more difficult when there is emotional pain attached. But it needn't be. Because Radical Acceptance does not require us to accept the pain that comes with a situation. Just the situation itself. Accept it completely, deep down to our toes. So what about the emotional pain that comes with it? How do we accept that? We don't. But we needn't fight it, either. Here's an example of my own. When my wife split on me she accused me of really horrible things. Called me a predator, an abuser, and worse. And all I ever wanted to do was love her more each day. So those accusations hurt deeply. Nearly fatal hurt this time. But I came to accept that she really believed and felt this stuff and could stop fighting that. Could stop thinking and talking about it being wrong and unfair and all misunderstanding. It just was as it is. It's what she thinks, whatever the reason. That leaves the pain, so how do I get to accept that? I don't. Don't have to. And there just happen to be dozens of techniques to help tolerate it in with that other material and here as well. Many things I could do to lessen the pain. And eventually I got it down to a level that was workable. I could wake up in the morning knowing that if (when) the hurt came along that day, it did not mean I was going to have to cry myself to sleep again that night. No, there were a number of things I coiuld do to lessen that pain and bring it to a tolerable (acceptable) level. I think the difference between accepting the reality of a situation and accepting the consequential pain is important as we struggle to learn Radical Acceptance. For me, it opened the door to the rest of road to recovery.
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Amanda
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:34 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 498
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I'm imagining a moose with IBF's head on its shoulders, running up the bank, shaking his head, spraying everyone in his wake. LOL! Just the giggle I needed after a stressful night at work.
The radical acceptance stuff is easier as you say when there is no emotional or physical pain associated with the thoughts.
My T uses acceptance work with me a lot, but because she doesn't label it as such (we just do it), I didn't really recognise it as such.
I'll share my own example from an exercise I did. I was still in terrible pain from my op, 3 weeks after the fact. I somehow had the idea that the pain should have been gone by then. It felt like it was going on forever and would never let up. I just wanted to make it go away and the more I resisted it, the more tense I was getting, and it was causing me a lot of distress. My T told me how to do the exercise and I put into practice that evening. I got myself to relax and just sit with the pain, to just observe it and allow it to be there. Initially the focusing in on it seemed to make it become more intense. (It's interesting how it changes in size, location, sensation as one just observes - it was like it was constantly changing.) Anyway, As I was doing this exercise I also observed my thoughts, and what I found once I started to welcome and accept the pain, was my thoughts changed from "I wish it would go away. I can't stand it any longer" to "this pain is here for a good reason. It's there to tell me to be kind and gentle to that wrist. If it wasn't here, I'd be using it as normal, possibly doing myself more harm." I found once I was able to accept the pain and to allow it to be there, I was more relaxed (not all tensed up) and it eased off somewhat. I learned that by resisting it, I was actually making it worse for myself. I've come to see pain in a whole new light. It isn't always a bad thing that needs to be gotten rid off.
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Bordergirl
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:38 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 2184 Location: Near the Cornfields
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Thanks Amanda. Right now I am dealing with overwhelming pain from my teeth extraction. I had my 2 front teeth removed to make way for implants. My mouth is so sore and it spreads to my face and nose. I have been up since 3:30 this morning. I need to call my oral surgeon at 9:00.
Anyway, I will practice the Radical Acceptance like you described it. It can't hurt, can it? I can't take this pain any longer - it's driving me crazy! Thank you. I'll let you know what happens.
_________________
......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)
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ibfuddled
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:20 am |
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Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 491
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Great recount of that experience, Amanda. You know, there is a variant of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy that concentrates on applying Acceptance to physical pain in many forms. They claim great success and I believe it. You are lucky to have a T who is up on this stuff when you happen to need it!
When you first described your thinking about this pain and the work that caused it, I closed my eyes and got a picture of the muscles and tendons in the hand, and imagined the sutures holding one to the other. Then I thought about the inflammation that would happen with work like that and how movement might make that worse. Did you know that those tendons and muscles hide under a perpendicular cartilage kinda sheath right there and ride back and forth underneath it? It was immediately visible to me how the sutures or the inflammation could aggravate the muscles, cause inflammation and how that whole package could be rubbing on the underside of that sheath... and the first thought that came after that picture was... "oh. accurate or not, that's all the reason I need to stop adding that pain."
I suppose that's another form of acceptance and with it, down comes the pain level.
BG, my dentist long ago taught me a very simple trick to reduce pain and anxiety as he worked on me doing a couple root canals. His notion was that by reducing our natural inclination to resist and fight the pain we can reduce or eliminate the additional pain the fight causes. Stopping the fight and resistance reduces the pain. And he was right. What did he tell me to do to make this happen? Turn the palms of my hands upward, so that I couldn't grab the chair arm rests and couldn't make fists with them. That's all it took. Relaxed my hands, then my arms, then my shoulders. The pain came down by almost 50% within minutes.
Acceptance can be a powerful thing. And for me, at least, it seems to work exactly the same way for emotional pain.
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Bordergirl
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:37 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 2184 Location: Near the Cornfields
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Thanks IBF. I am going to work on this. I saw my dentist this morning (an emergency appointment). He gave me new antibiotics that should help the swelling go down. I am going to try what you suggested. I can't say I'm fighting the pain, but I sure as heck am complaining about it a lot! Maybe if I try some relaxation it might help. Thanks for the tip!!!!
_________________
......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)
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confused1
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:17 am |
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:40 am Posts: 32
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Let me say first of all, I am so sorry for your discomfort BG. I have gone through numerous oral procedures myself. There is somthing about having that pain so close to the brain that just ... well you know. I hope that comfort and recovery come to you soon!
This pain conversation sounds similar to eastern philosophy. Goes kinda like this (I'm no expert here but I have read guite a bit of E Phil) When we say "I am feeling pain", is there an "I" that is seperate from the pain? The initial expression suggests that there is but really when you are feeling pain or anything you "are" that pain (careful here - the pain is NOT you). It is the "trying to get away from it" that causes all of the stress that our bodies feel which, in turn, greatly amplifies the pain. The relaxation technique would go kinda backwards from what IBF was suggesting. First focus on the area of pain, allow yourself to experience it don't resist it. The human body has a great capacity to actually "absorb " pain in this way. A (less painful) expirement with this is to go out on a very cold or hot day. Notice how your body tenses itself to "get away from" the discomfort. Allow your body to fully experience the cold or heat. Realize that if you are feeling cold you "are" cold and just let your body be that.
I'm dealing with pain issues myself. I have a real problem dealing with taking reponsibility for my actions, particularly when I have hurt my SO's feelings. I get so full of guilt, shame and anxiety that it really feels like physical pain. I get desperate to get away from it and I just want the whole situation to go away (typically here is where I react and make the situation much worse). I have been working on allowing myself to experience this pain. It exists so that I realize that I am hurting someone else, so that I won't do it anymore. If all I think about is the pain itself, all I ever do is focus on me. The pain really isn't the problem at all, my behavior is - and I can change that! I have actually been able to do this with positive results twice this week! One small step for a man....
_________________ Let no way be your way, let no limitations be your limitation
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Bordergirl
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:25 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 2184 Location: Near the Cornfields
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Thank you confused1. I saw my oral surgeon today and he changed the antibiotics I'm taking. Right now I feel better pain-wise but I am somewhat nauseous. I didn't take my reflux medicine this morning so that may be the cause.
I know when I have this type of severe pain, I become the pain. And it becomes me. There is no separation. All I can focus on is how bad I feel. The need then is to separate yourself from that pain. That's so hard to do. Right now I feel okay so it's easy to talk, but when I'm in the throes of pain, it's not as easy to do.
I tried thinking that it wouldn't last forever. But it sure felt like it would be. Calling the dentist and having him see me was something positive that I did for myself and helped a lot. Having his reassurance helped a lot. Knowing that he would do whatever it takes to make me feel better also helped.
I guess for me, the first step would be learning to separate the "I" from the actual pain. That might take me a while, but it's worth a try. Thanks!
_________________
......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)
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Amanda
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:08 am |
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Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 498
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ibfuddled wrote: Did you know that those tendons and muscles hide under a perpendicular cartilage kinda sheath right there and ride back and forth underneath it? One of the confirmed diagnoses on my wrist was subluxation of the ECU tendon - basically it was snapping in and out of it's sheath, due to inflammation and trauma from the fall I had. I also had a ganglion cyst removed, and a traumatic peripheral tear of the TFCC cartilidge repaired. In total 3 repairs in 3 separate areas of my wrist, via 4 incisions, one of which was 6cm up the ulnar side of my wrist. (I got a beauty of a scar there now!) My physio let me read the surgical report the other day. When I read this very detailed report, there was a lot of "cutting, burning, shaving, suturing, etc" going on inside my wrist and I thought to myself "No wonder I'm in so much pain." The thing was my GP had told me pre-op that it was a minor procedure, with minimal discomfort and a very quick recovery time, so I couldn't understand why it was still hurting so much. Based on the pre-op words of my GP, I felt that I shouldn't have been in so much pain, which actually added to my resistance of it. Turns out he was only talking about the arthroscopy part of the procedure, which was used to confirm the diagnoses before they opened it up to make the repairs. After reading the report and seeing what had actually been done inside of my wrist, it seemed normal that there would be a significant amount of pain associated with the work done. So, yes, it was another kind of acceptance. Quote: Acceptance can be a powerful thing. And for me, at least, it seems to work exactly the same way for emotional pain. Now that I actually have a name for this type of work that my T does with me, I can say that "acceptance work" works well for me too. BG - How are you doing now, with the pain? Is it due to infection? Or the posts that they put in? I honestly can't remember having too much pain after I had my teeth pulled, but then I was taking 2 different types of anti-biotics and they were straight-forward extractions. Confused1 - Was nice to read that you too have had some success with acceptance work over the past week!
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Bordergirl
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Post subject: Re: Radical acceptance - it just is Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 11:40 am |
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Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:00 pm Posts: 2184 Location: Near the Cornfields
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Thanks Amanda. I am feeling a bit better. The whole area feels funny, but not that wrenching pain I had yesterday. It goes up to my nose, even. I think the new antibiotics are helping. But yesterday morning, before I saw the dentist and got new antibiotics, I noticed my feet were swollen. So I know it's not from the new antibiotics. But it got worse last night. If it doesn't get better by tomorrow I'm going to call my Family Doctor. It's always something! But I think the pain is less and that's a good thing. The dentist said the post might be too long, but didn't think he should take it out and put in a smaller one. I wasn't too crazy about that idea either. So we'll see how the new antibiotics work out. Thank you!
_________________
......I'm gonna look at you till my eyes go blind..... (Bob Dylan)
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