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 Post subject: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 5:56 pm 
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I'm honestly pee'd off because ibf left. He had great and interesting thoughts. He had tons of good stuff to add. He was unique.

I have pm'ed him several times but he is not pm'ing me in return any longer.... i have lost contact.

I think he saw things with a view that encompassed more perspective than anyone I have ever known. I valued that. Not only that, but I think he saw how things really are, and took it into his own hands to improve situations when the problems were not solved by the CL team. I don't blame him for being angry. I think things might've (and don't hit me with should've) been handled differently in order to keep a valuable resource. WTF?

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:13 pm 
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Idc about your ideas to judge someone according to how many posts they make in succession... I judge by what thoughts they have, oh boy...

my point being, that I don't judge people all the same. People are judged by what they contribute, and what motives they have. It doesn't work the way you guys have decided to do things.... sorry. I agree with ibf.... and I haven't talked to him, or been influenced by him. There is a whole world out there that isn't "in the box", as dictated by ash and how girls should be lol.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:34 pm 
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The problem is we're never going to make everyone happy. Either we're doing too much or not enough. The sanction process was something we thought over for some time, and we feel it was our best option for dealing with problem posts. It's not perfect. It doesn't fit anything into a box. It's a guideline to keep the board on track.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:38 pm 
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Yea, but as you said, guidelines aren't perfect. Guidelines must go outside of lines in order to make sure resources are handled properly. They weren't.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:39 pm 
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Ha, not even close to perfect.... in this case....

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:11 pm 
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Aqua, IBF chose to leave on his accord. The sanction I issued to him was in no way a reflection on the contributions he made to this community or may make to the community in the future (should he choose to return). The sanction was issued in relation to a specific thing, which was pointed out in the specific post. As stated when I posted, he had the option to speak to me via PM or CC. He wrote a CC, to which I responded. His leaving was not requested at any time.

I whole-heartedly agree that IBF brings a great deal to BPDR. He's helped many people and provided solid advice to those seeking his insights.

You say that guidelines must go out of the lines in order to make sure resources are handled properly. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean. I interpret what you are saying as, "You (BPDR) should have done everything within your powers to make IBF stay in this community." If that is what you're saying, I am not sure how anyone can "make" someone stay.

IBF, or anyone else, has free will and can leave the site anytime he/she chooses. There are times when we place a ban on individuals when behaviors are overly bothersome to the community, but many times those individuals, after reflection, have returned and have been welcomed back into the community. Other people leave on their own because it is time for them to move away from BPDR. Some come back to check in (which is appreciated) and others never return (which is sad, as I miss knowing how folks are doing).

I'm unclear on what you mean by "it doesn't work the way you've decided to do things." My interpretation of that comment is "I don't like the sanctions and stop it so people that I care for an trust won't leave." If that is what you mean, I think it might help if you understand more about the process.

A sanction is not issued because the leadership team thinks it's fun to point out when people are stepping out of line or butting in unnecessarily. It is because members of the community asked the leadership of the community to take action when people step out of line or make comments that are inappropriate for a particular discussion. It is to get people to refocus on themselves rather than focus on other people's behaviors/actions.

If I do something out of line, or make a comment that is inappropriate, leadership team member or not, one of my teammates is going to call me out on it. In the days of ole, when BPDR was new and fresh, the leadership definitely called people out on their behaviors. Over time we became very used to the behaviors of individuals and wrote it off. What makes the process we've implemented recently different is that there will be consistency. If you've been in the community for 2 days or 5 years and you cross a boundary, we're going to let you know.

I'm sorry you're upset that IBF chose to leave the community and has not answered the PMs you've sent. Perhaps he will choose to return and will answer your PMs.


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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:01 pm 
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Ok, I'm going to think about it, Nik. I will get back to this.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:08 pm 
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Ash, what are your values that you instill for the site? I guess that is what is important for me to know. Is Jesus counted the same as Satan? Are their contributions counted as same-same?

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:47 am 
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AquaLite15 wrote:
Is Jesus counted the same as Satan? Are their contributions counted as same-same?

Huh?

In the most basic sense, all people are inherently equal and due a certain basic level of ... whatever. To begin with. There's a basic trust, respect, etc. when meeting new people. They get the Status Quo. As time passes, exchanges happen, etc., more trust and respect can be earned. Or lost.

But this isn't anarchy. It's not unilateral "everyone gets to do whatever they want."

If Jesus and Satan showed up and both conducted themselves with reasonable civility, adhered to the rules and guidelines of this place, yes, they'd both be welcome. If Jesus was having a bad day and made a snarky remark, he'd get the same sanction as would Satan for a similarly snarky remark. In that context yes, they're the same, equals, deserving of equal treatment based on their conduct here.

Sorry - the question was just so "far out there" that I'm not quite sure what to do with it so I'm not even sure I'm giving you an answer to the question. I'm not sure we're on the same page, let alone in the same chapter, nevermind in the same book. The question is almost nonsensical or incomprehensible to me.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:46 pm 
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I suppose my point is that I am seeing Sanctions being used like a machine. What is considered a snarky remark = spit out a Sanction. There was history involved and reasoning behind what ibf chose to do in that scenario. There's a person behind those words. There's a reason why he was angry, and I think that reason may have been because he saw an on-going problem that wasn't being solved. When there is a lack of policing efforts anywhere, people will group together in order to try to solve problems and keep themselves safe. I think I see that going on to a certain extent here. I certainly think some people here would be threatening to my own well-being irl, and maybe that brings out certain actions in people. It's natural. I believe his motives were good.

I do believe that every person needs to be treated respectfully and equally, to a certain extent. But I also value some people more than others. It's achievement-based. For example, if I am managing an employee who is worth more to me than another, I am going to do a little more to make sure he is happy there. I am not seeing that here, I suppose I am just curious as to why. I wouldn't have sanctioned him right off, because of what he adds to the community, and because the motive behind what he was doing was good. I would've maybe sent him a pm or something, explaining the situation.

That's more how real life is. People who deserve it get treated better. People who have good motives get treated better than people who have bad, that's karma. People who try harder get rewarded more and punished less. And, life isn't as black-and-white as snarky remark= Sanction. Situations create the need for different treatments. People are unique.

But, I am not seeing that you value people as resources in this scenario. I can understand that as well.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:36 am 
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There have been more than a few allegations of "playing favorites" and "letting people get away with stuff." If Camp A is bitching about Camp B who is also bitching about Camp A, how is King Solomon supposed to place higher value on one over the other? Both camps bring value to the community, even if a camp is unable to see that value from the other camp.

Sometimes, and I think in this case, the best course of action is to apply the very bare-bones most-basic and essential of rules unilaterally across the board - without regard to Trait X, Trait Y, Value Z, Subjective Worth 1, Subjective Perspective 2, Subjective Judgment 3, etc.


By this case, I'm not talking specifically about any single individual. I am talking about "this case" as "the state of BPDR with the non-stop bickering, picking and poking." It needs to stop all the way around on all sides in all camps in all situations.

He was angry because he saw an on-going problem in that there were a lack of policing efforts. Sadly, his anger came out at the same time as the new policing efforts. As did some other folks'. It was unfortunate timing. If it had been a different day or hour of the day, the Sanction Machine (as you put it) would have spit out sanctions at other people.

As it was, it appears that the Sanction Machine spit out either enough things or in the 'right' situations to show the entire community "hey, do this, get hit with that" and things appear to have improved over the past little while.

I agree with you that people are unique. Common decency, courtesy, civility, respect, focus, etc. are unilateral, though.

If you're pissed off, those unilateral things still apply. That's what the so-called Sanction Machine is saying and that's ALL it's saying.

On a side-note, I'm seriously pissed off right now about something and I've set aside my thoughts, words and anger until I know I can come back to it with less heated emotion. I don't want to get hit with a Sanction myself, after all. Until I'm able to approach the situation with a basic level of respect and civility, it's best that I not stir the shit-pot even further. What's good for the goose is good for the ganger, after all.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:28 pm 
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I also wanted to add, that as an employer, I can get in serious moral and legal trouble if I treat 2 employees differently. Doesn't matter that one works harder than another. Example. I know that one person is late because they have kids to get to daycare in the morning. I know another is late because they were out drinking all night. Both are late. As much as I'd like to cut the parent some slack and punish the drinker, I have to treat both equally or can face consequenses.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:29 pm 
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AquaLite15 wrote:
...There's a person behind those words. There's a reason why he was angry, and I think that reason may have been because he saw an on-going problem that wasn't being solved. When there is a lack of policing efforts anywhere, people will group together in order to try to solve problems and keep themselves safe. I think I see that going on to a certain extent here. I certainly think some people here would be threatening to my own well-being irl, and maybe that brings out certain actions in people. It's natural. I believe his motives were good.
IBF's motives may have been good. However, in this specific situation, the manner in which he chose to express his opinion, idea, or thought was inappropriately placed, which is why I issued the sanction.

AquaLite15 wrote:
I do believe that every person needs to be treated respectfully and equally, to a certain extent. But I also value some people more than others. It's achievement-based. For example, if I am managing an employee who is worth more to me than another, I am going to do a little more to make sure he is happy there. I am not seeing that here, I suppose I am just curious as to why. I wouldn't have sanctioned him right off, because of what he adds to the community, and because the motive behind what he was doing was good. I would've maybe sent him a pm or something, explaining the situation.
I disagree. People need to be treated respectfully and equally at all times. Respect should be given to anyone at any time, even if they are being disrespectful toward me, I am going to give them respect. Because they treat me like shit doesn't mean I have to act in kind. As a manager, one is responsible to provide management to employees equally, regardless of perceived worth. In many instances, employees who underperform require more management than those who perform at an average or above average level.

You may not have sanctioned IBF but I did. I do not disagree that IBF adds to the community. I do not know his full motive and it was not my place to try to decipher what he was trying to say or whether his intentions were good, bad, or indifferent.

AquaLite15 wrote:
That's more how real life is. People who deserve it get treated better. People who have good motives get treated better than people who have bad, that's karma. People who try harder get rewarded more and punished less. And, life isn't as black-and-white as snarky remark= Sanction. Situations create the need for different treatments. People are unique.
In real life people are not necessarily tolerant of the behavior of others. In real life, more snarky remarks are said and often frequently. The difference is that in this online community, snarky remarks are seen and cannot be denied because they are typed on the screen for others to read.

You are correct, situations create the need for different treatments. There are different sanctions. It's not a one-size-fits-all sort of process. The part that is black and white is that if a person steps over a boundary, they are going to know they've stepped over. The application is unilateral and will be applied to all members of the community.

AquaLite15 wrote:
But, I am not seeing that you value people as resources in this scenario. I can understand that as well.
My sanction of IBF did not devalue his contributions to the board. The sanction focused his attention on a boundary that was crossed.


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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:16 pm 
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Regardless of how you guys want to describe it and how you think it needed to be an even thing across the board (and I can see that side of things as well), IBF is gone. You guys might see IBF as the same as everyone else here, but I do not. I hold more value in people who have more perspective and experience and knowledge, and ability. He is gone, therefore, I am seeing this as a failure. Sorry, but I would much rather read his words than 99% of anyone I read here. I don't count people as equals, and neither does life. All people are created equal, that doesn't mean they die equal. It's what you do in between that makes it different. The way I act and what I choose to do will put me in places where I might either get more or less respect than the next guy. That's life. It doesn't mean I am not willing to show others respect equally on the streets. I do. I show each person an equal amount of respect, until relationships are formed. Then, I can't say I have ever seen anyone who doesn't change the amounts of respect they give based on the person and their actions. People are different, and they don't all want or need the same type of respect from me. For example, I am not going to treat my girlfriend the same as I am going to treat my father. My girlfriend doesn't want to be treated like my father does, and it does entail showing different amounts of respect.

He was devalued by issuing the Sanction, which I see as being inappropriate in that certain situation. IBF is not any average joe who is here, and he will take it differently, being that the situation he was in was one of trying to solve the problems himself. He was ahead of the curve in the first place, and then he gets hit by a Sanction? .... I simply think it could've been done in a more empathetic way to his own feelings and given the respect he was due. That's all. I'm saying that he was deserving of more than he got in the way of respect. And I am going to treat my grandfather differently than I am going to treat my niece. My niece doesn't Want to be treated like my grandfather. All people do not want the same kind of respect. They are not "equal" in this sense. Make sense? lol. As I said, the way it was put into place did not take into account initially the reactions and feelings of some of the more, imo, valuable members on the site.

As far as the points on management, they sound good, but irl, I've seen that people are not all managed equally, not where the job doesn't entail putting a person there who has little skill. Then it doesn't matter if it's joe or harry sitting there, so the people are treated the same. People are treated differently when they are not easily replaced (and I am seeing that in this case, ibf is not easily replaced, by far). If I am the only person in The Bay Area who has a certain wanted skill, do you think I am going to be treated like the janitor (and I'm not speaking of a certain basic level of respect, I'm speaking of what naturally happens when people gain in society)? Sure, I am going to say "please and thank you" to anyone, that doesn't mean they are someone I would have anything in common with to go have lunch, but I sure would love to have lunch with someone who had certain skills I would like to have. People are met with flexibility, when they are important to the working of the whole. Whether they are 5 minutes late, is not even noticed. I'm not talking about a retail store, where you punch in-and-out on a machine. Because of the various issues involved in relationships, people grow in different ways and receive different treatments. And, what I am seeing, is that people are treated differently and rewarded more for having certain skills, for doing a better job, ect. (not because I like them more, but because they have grown to receive that type of respect and rewards). I'm speaking of situations where skills are rewarded. The janitor wouldn't appreciate or understand the types of relationships I am speaking of, more than likely. The cream rises to the top. People receive different kinds of respect as relationships are formed. It's not that cut-and-dry. I think we are probably speaking from two completely different situations, and it's probably best not to go back and forth lol...I myself have been given special treatments when I was selling more than others. I got an office, a raise, was treated the way I wanted to be treated. They "let it slide" when I was late, (as long as the others didn't find out).

Honestly, from what I have seen, people here have grown to a certain point, and perhaps they have a little case of know-it-all'ism (so go ahead and point the finger at me, maybe I've caught the same illness I've been seeing). In such that ibf did not receive the kind of respect that I think he deserved (because maybe, it's my-way-or-the-hiway, and since I am doing pretty good, I think I know better than ibf?) And, Ash, since I have been pointed out as being "arrogant", do you think you know what's best for everyone on the site? Because in that case, you didn't.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:42 pm 
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Aqua,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I appreciate your perspective. Your words are being heard.

One thing I want to make very clear, I issued the sanction solely. I had no discussion with others on the S/CL team prior to issuing the sanction. In your final statement you address Ash as though she had something to do with what has happened.

You are entitled to disagree with my decision to issue the sanction. I am entitled to disagree with your interpretation of why IBF left the site. IBF is not here to provide his reasons so it is best for this discussion to cease as it is not up to either of us to defend his honor.

In this community we need to work on our own issues. If you want to discuss what's transpired and your unhappiness about IBF leaving that is fine, but you need to turn the focus on to how this is affecting you as an individual and rather than how messed my decision was to issue IBF a sanction because you don't think it was warranted.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:34 pm 
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I suppose I want accountability taken for your parts in his decision to leave. Why did he leave? I can make an assessment based on his on-going actions and words, from the site and from my own personal relationship with him. I know this... he had issues with an on-going problem and the fact that it wasn't being solved. He was issued a Sanction (in what I determined to be an improper way, given the situation), and he left.

How could that have been prevented? Or does no one care that he left?

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:22 pm 
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When I received the third sanction doled out in one day (no more seem to have been made since the first day immediately following the announcement) I was a bit shocked and felt unfairly censored for one word ("here") in a long post seeking feedback. I did not want to put any more of my own words out there and I have yet to try to continue that thread for fear that I will not be able to talk about a problem that has to do with other people and still keep the focus entirely on myself. It is like trying to talk about something like incest and only being able to look at how I contributed by not mentioning my father's actions in any way. I can't really talk about my response to a behavior if I can't talk honestly and openly about the behavior as it relates to a dynamic between two people.

It did not take me long to realize that the sanction was probably the best thing that could have happened because no longer will the "other camp" be able to say that Ash plays favorites and treats me differently than anyone else. I am sort of glad it is on record now since it is a greater benefit to me than any argument against the "no fair" cries would have been, LOL. I recall having asked to be banned not too long ago just to make that very point but being sanctioned is far easier and more public than being banned (the ban may not have been visible enough).

The people who will most likely receive the brunt of the sanctions in the future have become more cautious and hopefully the mere threat will be all it takes to put an end to the actions that led to the need for sanctions in the first place. What I find unfortunate is that others will cease to contribute for fear of being sanctioned. I also find it very unfortunate that IBF is no longer willing to participate in this community because I also consider him an asset.

At this point, I think I am less afraid of being sanctioned in the future now that I have experienced it personally because the more I thought about it, the less meaning it had for me. It is sort of like falling off a horse in that once it happens, you realize that it is not as bad as you feared and that gives you confidence to get back in the saddle again (I have always landed on my feet during "emergency dismounts" from horses so I have learned that I can handle unexpected situations that have the potential to be more threatening). If I were to get sanctioned again, I would want to be sure I said exactly what needed to be said before I hit the "submit" button and I would probably not even blink the next time I see the words "OFFICIAL SANCTION" across my computer screen. I recall that in school if I was going to be a couple of seconds late to class and get a tardy slip, I might as well be real late and so I would take an additional 20 minutes or half an hour (depending on the cut-off from tardy to absent) for myself before showing up for my tardy slip.

I think that IBF would benefit from the sanction policy in the long run if he came back and saw that that it was effective in changing those very things he took an issue with in his post. I do believe that if it is not effective in changing those things and benefiting the community overall, the policy will be revisited.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:03 am 
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I think I am going to go away for a little while and think about this. I am too angry to go forth in a way that I think would be well-done anymore (not that most of what I have done in a while has been, but at least I don't tell people to go "look within" when they point that out), and at least I have the guts try to listen, and to work to know and say what I am and when I have made mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:00 am 
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I think I've calmed down....

ibf did something for me that changed my life. He showed me things that were life-changing. I won't go into details.

I think that is why I was so upset that he wasn't here anymore. It was just about who he was, and what he said. He was a guy that changed lives, I think he had a gift (and no, I don't think he was some god or guru or whatever). I just think what he did for me no one has really ever done before in that same way. He was unique, and I haven't found many that reached me like that, or cared to.

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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:11 am 
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I've had that type of experience, Aqua. There was a woman who happened to step into my life at just the right moment and provided me with incredible insight and what I considered to be a magic potion which got me to change my life course. She was only in my life for a very brief moment but her presence and words were profound and life-altering. I haven't had any contact with her since that time, but the words still ring true and I continue to use the tools she provided to me.

IBF helped many people in the BPDR community and hopefully the wisdom shared will continue to be passed around by members.


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 Post subject: Re: IBF
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 7:29 am 
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Thanks, Nik. I appreciate you sharing with me.

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The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty. ---Winston Churchill

It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow. -- Robert H. Goddard


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